Recently I read an article that I enjoyed reading yet I had some reservation with it because it had an undertone that seemed to make sure to say that being gay is a sin. Basically the article was on LGBT issues and the church. I thought the article was good but there were a few things in the article that made me think it was stating that we should accept gay people but still needed to point out that being gay is a sin, or that acting upon those feelings was sinful.
Obviously I may have misinterpreted what the author was saying and I am not sure if the author meant to make it sound that way, yet there are many Christian writers that definitely feel the need to make a point of saying that being gay is sinful. My thought is why do we christians feel the need to point out what we think are faults and sins of others. Why do we have the sense that we can play God and say what is and what is not a sin and who deserves our love and who does not?
First off, no matter who we are or what we think I do not believe any of us as followers of Christ are to be the sin police. We are called to love God and love others, not to point out what we think is sinful behavior in others. The law shows that we cannot live a perfect life and the Spirit convicts the world of sin, so by pointing out what we think is sin in other people is going beyond what God has called us to do.
Second, I am not one to say that being gay is a sin. I do not think that is the job of followers of Christ. There are certainly many different ideas and interpretations of biblical verses that shed a different light on the subject than what we grew up with in the church and to make a judgment on what is and what is not a sin in this area is not for us to do.
What about gay and transgender people who are Christians, are we to completely discount their faith and experience just because we think they are living sinful lives?
If we want to talk about sin then we have to point out that we all have sinned in one way or another, yet because of Christ the sinful nature has been crucified with Christ and the spirit within us is holy and righteous. Of course in the world we still commit sins but we are cleansed and forgiven of our sinful nature through grace. This is not narrowed down to only certain groups of people, grace has been made available to human beings as a whole.
To start separating people into different groups because of sin is wrong. We are not called to separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters and we are to love and accept everyone in this world just as Jesus did, showing the love of God to everyone.
What has always bothered me is that we are so quick to make being gay a sin that is worse than anything else. Even those who accept the LGBT community still make a point of saying that gay life is sinful. They use such comments as hate the sin love the sinner or being gay is OK as long as you do not act on your feelings, yet statements such as these can be very hurtful.
What about in the bible where it says God hates divorce? Why don’t we separate those who have divorced into a lower class group of people like we do gay and transgender people? Based on statistics published in the online version of Charisma Magazine a report from a few years ago by the Barna Research Group revealed that 32 percent of those identified as born-again Christians have experienced at least one divorce. A related study also conducted by Barna Research found that among Protestant senior pastors, 15 percent have experienced divorce. Why is it that we Christians want to overlook such happenings among the Church yet make gay and transgender people the worst of sinners?
Obviously we all have our personal convictions of right and wrong and we want to live our lives in a pleasing way to God, but we are not to force our convictions and views on others. Just because others have different convictions and interpretations than we do does not mean we are right and they are wrong. We are not called to finger point, judge and condemn. We are called to love.
Love is the way of God and love does not include separation, judgment, condemnation or exclusion. Love is what we are called to show as followers of Christ and that includes everyone not just those who act, live and believe like we do.
Whether gay, straight, lesbian, transgender, atheist, male, female, black, white or whatever religious belief you follow, apart from the labels we put on each other we are all human beings. Coming from a Christian perspective I believe we were all created in the likeness of God and loved by God. As followers of Christ we are to love our neighbor and respect each other no matter if we agree or not.
We are all entitled to live and believe in a way we feel is right. None of us should be pushing our beliefs on others and we should not have the attitude we are right and everyone else is wrong. We all have things to learn and we all should be willing to love others no matter what we believe. Our personal beliefs are basically all a matter of faith because none of us can prove beyond a doubt if our beliefs are right or wrong.
Speaking of people who see things differently than we Christians, whether you believe there is a God or not does not make a difference in how you should be treated. Unfortunately many times atheists are considered to be the archenemy of our Christian faith, yet we forget that atheist is just a label and there is a human being behind that label who deserves to be treated like anyone else. All of us are entitled to have our personal way of thinking and believing without condemnation and judgment from others.
As followers of Christ we are to live in the way Jesus lived which is the way of love and acceptance. That does not mean we all have to agree and live in complete harmony with one another. It does mean we can accept one another even in our differences knowing that in the eyes of God we are all loved and we can all respect one another and treat each other with kindness.
Jesus commanded us to call out Sin anywhere we find it, to include within ourselves. Not only are we to root out Sin, but we are to repent of it when we find it in ourselves. Martin Luther summed it up rather nicely in Thesis #1 of 95 Theses, “When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, “Repent” (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.”
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Thank you Rachel. I appreciate your support and happy that you take the time to read our posts.
Jim
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Keep posting and keep close to God. I re-posted to my website. I love your thoughts.
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[…] via LGBT and the church […]
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Glad to hear you have a girlfriend like that. You are right in that many christian people are quick to judge and condemn rather than follow the example of Christ which is to love. Thanks for your comment.
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My girlfriend is an avid believe of Christ and yet she has never thought that loving me is a sin. She is one of the kindest Christians I have ever met and loves everyone with all her heart. I wish more religious people were like that.
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Unfortunately I agree many christians are as you say but not all. Certainly promises can not be kept because our walk is one of faith not proof. Rather than judge and condemn and make threats of things we cannot prove, we should be acting in love and accepting people even in our differences. Thanks for the comment.
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Christians tend to be arrogant, judgmental, unforgiving, and bigoted. All they have to offer are false promises of a paradise and empty threats of a hell. If they had a single fact to present, would they need lies and threats?
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Thank you Brett for adding my article to your site. I appreciate you doing that. I hope it is an encouragement to those that read it.
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[…] via LGBT and the church — Done with Religion […]
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Thank you Rusty for the comment. Thanks for the link to your article also. I will check it out.
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Hi Jim, I appreciate your approach to the topic. For what it’s worth, here is my attempt to speak the this – though not entirely like you – I am tired of my own inconsistency with living for/like the One I claim to follow, imitate, and love. For your info: https://moreenigma.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/defy-the-cultural-trends/
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Thanks Tony. When we remove the labels from people we find human beings who are loved by God. I will be praying for your wife also. Thanks for your comment.
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Jim, this is a great article. I would like to say right here that I have an Internet friend who just happens to be gay, and he is a Christian who is praying for my seiously ill wife, even though he has never met her. I don’t care that he’s gay, except that I rejoice greatly in his marriage to his husband – yes, husband! – and I value his friendship, his opinions and his personality. His sexuality doesn’t even enter into it. The main things for me are that a) he’s my friend and b) he’s praying for my wife.
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I have both family and friends who are or have wrestled with homosexuality, in addition to another member of my nearest who has suffered with bisexual urges in her life. Thankfully they have overcame such painful and upsetting desires so to have the sort of fulfilling life they truly want outside of the community of gays, lesbians and bisexuals.
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“Thank you Jim, as do I. I live in an area of the U.S. that is generally considered more diverse and it is through a diverse set of relationships that has helped me look at things from different perspectives and reset my priorities.”
Isn’t the above your real problem, machba. You’re interpreting the Bible in light of your circumstances, that and not your circumstances in light of the Bible. This isn’t something for me or anyone to prove as you readily admit to it, you’re changing your perspective from what is natural to adopt in light of good sense in favour of an altogether alien understanding of life and the Bible, and because you’re afraid of hurting or upsetting your dearest loved ones, you’re committing God’s word to the flames. This however, contrary to everything you wish, has only hurt your loved ones more.
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It’s not to say that the Christian should be in line with society, that’s to misunderstand my material, rather the point of how every society has reacted negatively to the same sex attracted should inform our views in light of the global and historical context which has so shaped our own world today. To dismiss other cultures simply because they’re not Christian would be to go into the other extreme, dismissing the wonderful shared conscious which the Lord has written upon our hearts. In addition, in what way can you write that homosexuality has “ZERO” negative impact upon society, as it’s abundantly clear by use of the data I’ve already shared that there’s negative impact. Which part of the vanishingly small gay community being afflicted by over 50% of the nation’s HIV and AIDS doesn’t strike you as negative?
Moreover, although you imagine weakness in the arguments I’m sharing, you’d be perhaps less likely to think so after having reread the material in light of the Biblical explanation of God’s ordained context in which humanity ought to continue. God ordained lifelong heterosexual relationships when He created them “male and female” and commanded that they have children (Gen. 1:27-28). Sex was given a family context from the beginning, or as it’s explained “A man [male] will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [female], and they will become one flesh” (Gen 2:24). Paul makes it clear that “one flesh” implies sexual intercourse (1 Cor. 6:15-17). The writer of Hebrews proclaims how “marriage ought to be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterers and all the sexually impure” (Heb. 13:4). Indeed, the Ten Commandments declare: “You shall not commit adultery” and “You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife” (Exod. 20:14, 17). These passages make it plain that God ordained sex to be between a male and female within the bonds of marriage.
The above presupposes the union of one man and one woman in a lifelong, monogamous marriage commitment made in the sight of God and Their divine economy, everything else, as I’m going to show in another message, would be the product of people twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction (their bias is in favour of their gay friends, family and co-workers). Though your end contribution really struck me as interesting, read with me: “Same as with Daryl, arguing from societies perspective, as a Christian, is irrelevant to your argument.” Thus you’re writing people shouldn’t oppose homosexual desires in the above fashion, despite the clear good conscious which the Lord so lovingly has fixed into every person, yet you continue: “If you simply want to argue from the Bible, there are a range of views, and yours is just one,” You’re then tempted to undermine the validity of every religious argument due to religious relativism! In short, there’s no literally argument for challenging the same sex attraction of people which could satisfy your criteria, for you’re attempting to undermine both the irreligious and the religious (how interesting).
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Thanks machba
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“I personally have a few friends and a couple relatives that are gay and most are faith based people.”
Thank you Jim, as do I. I live in an area of the U.S. that is generally considered more diverse and it is through a diverse set of relationships that has helped me look at things from different perspectives and reset my priorities.
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“An impassioned appeal is in no way an embittered rant,”
Did I say embittered rant? No, just a rant.
Quote from your blog: “My reply wasn’t prompt in coming, largely because Jim finds it appropriate to repeatedly delete my messages before finally posting, nonetheless: Post my reply, DWR. Blocking and deleting when another poster shares Scripture shows there’s something seriously going wrong with your blog.”
You spent about 5 or 6 paragraphs arguing about the amount of acceptable content one should allow on a blog. Really? In case you didn’t know, when blog posts are too long, people don’t read them (TL;DR = Too Long Didn’t Read). In fact I only skimmed yours to find relevant examples to post here.
Another quote: “You’re making demands with regards to how I ought to behave as if to quote the Bible was criminal, even going so far as to write I may “go on and on” as though God’s Word was an old prattling annoyance to you, just background noise “going on and on” while you’re busy doing something more valuable.”
IMHO, your post has now become a rant. You could have spent more time being concise in answering the relevant parts of Jim’s post, but filled it up with concerns about how he runs his blog.
“Coffee and Skype are a poor substitute for an open heart, I’m asking that Jim might soften their heart and begin to explore these things they believe.”
Completely disagree on the first part. Ask that you do the same on the second part.
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I personally have a few friends and a couple relatives that are gay and most are faith based people.
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” it’s the celebration of the gay relationship which has, whether people enjoy this or not, been condemned by practically every society thus far.”
So Christians should just follow what society does?
“Society so to be sustainable thrives upon healthy, loving, heterosexual relationships, not homosexual ones, in short, nobody was ever born out of a homosexual relationship (despite what the labs and newspapers would have people believe).”
Weakest argument possible. You yourself pointed out that homosexuals are a small minority. Their lifestyle has ZERO negative impact on society and ZERO impact on the church. In fact the reason why the church is more and more being negatively regarded by society is due to ridiculous arguments such as yours. While on the other hand, the church has not exactly been a beacon of light in this realm.
Same as with Daryl, arguing from societies perspective, as a Christian, is irrelevant to your argument. If you simply want to argue from the Bible, there are a range of views, and yours is just one:
http://www.respectfulconversation.net/cfahs/.
I’m out.
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“The church, who are made to appear ugly and bigoted in light of the gay debate, clearly aren’t trying to continue the conversation, they’re happy to let the entire thing simmer down!”
And of course, the “church” couldn’t possibly be accused of making homosexuals appear “ugly and bigoted”. Both sides have bias. You have bias.
Same question I asked Daryl: Do you personally know any homosexuals? And I don’t mean the person who bags your groceries. I mean do you have any friends who are homosexual.
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“homosexuality contributes to the breakdown of family just as divorce does,and this is why God is not pleased with either”
No, people contribute to the breakdown of family. Whether they are homosexual or otherwise has zero bearing on this.
“it’s all over,the news and liberal media,schools and the workplace.”
“It’s not hard to see if you are a believer,…a follower of Christ.”
Biased eyes see what they want to see.
“But if your starting point is “homosexuality is not sin”,then as a christian I can’t accept that.”
Within Christendom, there are a range of views.
http://www.respectfulconversation.net/cfahs/
“my point is not irrelevant”
The reason I say it is irrelevant is that there is no possible answer to this point (i.e. it is pointless) and it does nothing to bolster your argument. You said “Homosexuality practiced wholeheartedly to it’s end results in utter death to humanity.No father,no mother,no children.” Unless you are afraid that there is some conspiracy to brainwash the entire human race into becoming homosexuals, your argument is purely philosophical and has no real bearing in reality.
Do you personally know any homosexuals? And I don’t mean the person who bags your groceries. I mean do you have any friends who are homosexual.
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You’re very right, daryl. It’s not sound judgement to pull down fences before knowing first why they were erected to begin with, and it’s the celebration of the gay relationship which has, whether people enjoy this or not, been condemned by practically every society thus far. The Mohaves (Native Americans), for example, interchanged the word for homosexual with the word for coward, that’s not to say that’s an accurate characterization, rather it’s showing that this extremely small minority (about 2 to 4 percent) have always in every culture been a point of disunity. Society so to be sustainable thrives upon healthy, loving, heterosexual relationships, not homosexual ones, in short, nobody was ever born out of a homosexual relationship (despite what the labs and newspapers would have people believe). Without the union of one man and one women the whole race would be extinct in a single generation, in this sense homosexuality is a threat to the continuance of the human race. There’s no defence in writing that that’s not going to happen, or that not everybody would practice the homosexual lifestyle, for if it’s an acceptable behaviour for all, as the gay lobby claim, then all could practice it, and if all did practise it, then the human race would self-destruct.
God almighty has ordained that sex should only be within the confines of a monogamous heterosexual relationship, even having Scripture refer to the act of gay sex, not the people, but the act, in these strong terms: “Shameful desire,” “Sexual impurity,” “degrading,” “a lie,” “shameful lusts,” “unnatural,” “inflamed. . .lusts,” “indecent,” and “perversion,” Therefore, the endless arguments aren’t about whether or not people are, as the motto goes, “born that way,” as the gay friendly scientists have failed to marshalled that evidence regardless, rather it’s about people wanting validation for their sinful lifestyle. Nobody has told the gay community not to “love,” as they’re often complaining, who in all of the world has stood on the down with love platform, so, what are the gay activists fighting for?
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machba,my point is not irrelevant.I’m merely pointing out that homosexuality contributes to the breakdown of family just as divorce does,and this is why God is not pleased with either.As for “where do you see the gay community forcing their views”…it’s all over,the news and liberal media,schools and the workplace. The same sex marriage agenda,where christians who oppose that ,are regularly portrayed as ignorant,bigots,outdated,intolerant,etc, The transgender bathroom fiasco,the baker and others who were made out as prejudiced simply for holding to their christian values.It’s not hard to see if you are a believer,…a follower of Christ. Certainly,many christians exhibit terrible behavior,like that moron preacher when all those people were murdered at the gay nightclub in Orlando.No serious follower of Christ would agree with that idiot. I actually agree with much in the post,how we should treat one another with kindness,love,acceptance. But if your starting point is “homosexuality is not sin”,then as a christian I can’t accept that. Believers have a responsibility towards one another, we are to bear one anothers burdens,submit one to another,hold each other up.The most unloving thing we could do if we see a christian friend struggling with a particular sin,whether it be homosexuality,adultery,greed,lying,etc….is tell them “that’s ok,that’s not really sin”.
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I’ll happily share such an example, in an April 9, 2009 article in the Washington Post, it was documented how “Faith organizations and individuals who view homosexuality as sinful and refuse to provide services to gay people are losing a growing number of legal battles that they say are costing them their religious freedom.” Correspondent Jacqueline L. Salmon offered such examples, many of which should be considered in light of freedom of conscience:
1. A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney’s costs after she refused to photograph a gay couples commitment ceremony.
2. A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
3.Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
4. A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practising sex outside of traditional marriage.
Of course, simply imagining the political and religious landscape, it’s obvious that the swell in support of the gay camp wasn’t a happy blunder by the often irreligious, it’s been thoroughly campaigned for and fought over in the courts to no end. The church, who are made to appear ugly and bigoted in light of the gay debate, clearly aren’t trying to continue the conversation, they’re happy to let the entire thing simmer down! It’s clearly gay activists who want to keep the momentum till boiling point who are forcing their views.
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An impassioned appeal is in no way an embittered rant, and as is evident in the amount of Scripture I alluded to in the closing section of my material, I’m appealing. Rants are bad tempered, ill considered and spontaneous, whereas my words in print to Jim were, I can assure you, carefully worded, shared in love and without malicious. Just one proof of that, as I’ve explained, would be the careful use of Scripture in underlining my point (Matthew 18, Mark 3, Acts 17, 2 Timothy 3). I’ve shared with Jim Scripture, God-breathed, powerful, personal, life-giving and abundantly precious. I’m not appealing to Jim by use of the Bhagavad Gita, nor the Tripitaka, because they’re simply not authoritative (nor so beautiful) how that the Bible is. Of course failing to appreciate the nuances of the above may lead people into misreading an appeal entirely. “You’re just ranting” is ordinarily how people approach an impassioned speech when they’re failing to appreciate the material, or perhaps simply when they’re unhappy by the content thereof. Just imagine a white nationalist rewriting the famous Martin Luther King “I have a dream” speech:
“Well. . .you know. . .I’ve got an idea. . .a dream. . .though nothing concrete yet. . .we’re just floating ideas.”
“Problem solved!” The nationalist exclaims, having made to an end to the “ranting” of Dr. King. In addition, I’ve extended to Jim more credit than perhaps you’re prepared, as I’m sure they can reflect, reply in print privately, or even reach out to other believers for an outsiders opinion. Coffee and Skype are a poor substitute for an open heart, I’m asking that Jim might soften their heart and begin to explore these things they believe.
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Daryl,
“The accusations of christians singling out homosexuality are often rediculous. It’s more often a response to the gay community forcing their convictions and views upon christians…and of course,no tolerance,acceptance,or love is extended to them,unless they accommodate and bow to their wishes.”
Can you provide anything to support this assertion? Where do we see the gay community “forcing their convictions and views upon Christians”?
“Homosexuality practiced wholeheartedly to it’s end results in utter death to humanity.No father,no mother,no children.”
This point is irrelevant.
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Thanks
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Thanks for commenting
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Clearly,according to Scripture,homosexuality is sinful….certainly not something that believers in Christ should practice.As with any sin,men are tempted and often fail.Of course,lost people are going to practice sin…they have not the power to do otherwise.However,in the Church,believers have an obligation to the Spirit,to live worthy of their calling.Believers are not “entitled” to live and believe in ways that they “feel” is right.They are ambassadors for Christ,representing Him. The accusations of christians singling out homosexuality are often rediculous. It’s more often a response to the gay community forcing their convictions and views upon christians…and of course,no tolerance,acceptance,or love is extended to them,unless they accommodate and bow to their wishes.Believers genuinely living to please their Lord rather than men,are labeled racist,bigots,prejudiced. Christians should expect nothing less from the unbelieving world,but within the Body of Christ,believers should never accept,accommodate,practice,and promote,what the Lord says is sinful. Love IS the way of God,but it does not follow that there is an absence of separation,judgment,condemnation,exclusion. Love percieved that way would make God a liar,contradicting Himself,His holiness. Jesus said “I am the way,the truth,and the life.No man comes to the Father but through me”. That excludes other ways to the Father.His purpose is to save the world,not condemn it..yet He says”whoever believes in him is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son”. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ,but there is condemnation for those who reject Him.Christians are to make judgments about many things,to be discerning,and separate themselves from sinful practices and fellow believers whose lifestyle is one of practicing sin. As for divorce,God hates it because how it hurts people,whom He loves. The higher divorce rates should grieve us and I haven’t really seen christians promoting and encouraging divorce as something that is perfectly fine with God.Yet with homosexuality which God speaks of in even more scathing terms,we do see this.Believers aren’t singling it out by resisting it in the Church.Homosexuality practiced wholeheartedly to it’s end results in utter death to humanity.No father,no mother,no children.
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Good point. Perhaps a Skype chat? ; )
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Thanks for your comment. To be clear about this, we do live in different countries.
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OSC, your blog (or at least that one post directed at Jim which I did read) is just basically one long rant. Given the many many other blogs on the internet that probably present the same case that you are presenting, but in a less rant-like fashion, why would you expect Jim or anyone else for that matter, to expend the time and energy engaging with you? If you really want to have a meaningful exchange, I’d suggest setting up a meeting in person. Otherwise, I don’t see how it would possibly be fruitful.
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Thank you. I want to read your article when it comes out.
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[…] via LGBT and the church — Done with Religion […]
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Thanks for the comment and for keeping it short and to your point.
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If you would like to talk about statistics, Jim, there’s the statistic here in the UK which shows the same sex attracted community, although being so small as only 1.5 percent of the population, make up well over 50% of the HIV and AIDS cases. Or the statistics which show that three-quarters of Canadian gay men in relationships lasting longer than one year are not monogamous, according to a study presented during the American Sociological Association conference held in Atlanta during 2003. Just because for some people the topic is a sacred cow, something to be defended at all costs, the rest of the world have to live with the consequences of this community’s behaviour. Parents lose their children to it, wives lose their husbands, if it appears as though the church is overly concerned with the antics of the LGBT camp, I’d imagine that’s because the church is under attack legally speaking, as is everyone who won’t “accept” as you often put it.
On an aside note, I hope you’ll visit my blog today, as I’ve written about the content here on Done with religion.
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Thank you for the kind comment.
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Thank you Jim. I enjoy reading your blog and we think alike. With regard to LGBT and the church, as with many issues, I sense that many Christians are not willing to put in the time and effort to think deeply enough about these things. And thus, many arrive at oversimplified conclusions. Your point about divorce is spot on.
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I think transgenders are totally different from LBG…people can become LGB with their choice…but transgenders are natural….in near futur i fear some people will rise saying they are in love and attracted to animals and yes these people too will demand for rights…
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Thanks jem
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Thank you!
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