My last post about ‘LGBT and the church’ received several comments that obviously disagreed with my views. That is fine and only to be expected because this is a public site and others are free to share their views.
Although it seems to me that sometimes people spend more time trying to prove their views and point out why they think other people are wrong rather than accept the fact that everyone sees things differently and no one is going to agree on everything.
I post my articles based on the fact they are only my opinion and the way I see things at this point in my walk with God. I am not going to change the opinion of any one else and I do not try to do so. No one is going to change my opinion either as I know each of us has a different view and I am not going to change my views based on human opinion. I know the Spirit of God within will teach and guide and my views will probably be different on some things than they are now as new truth is opened up by the Spirit.
As a follower of Christ I refuse to be judgmental and condemning. Even when other christians say I am wrong for not pointing out what they think are sins of others, I refuse to do so. I feel that being an example of Christ means to love people without condemnation and without ulterior motives.
It’s funny how christians are called to love people yet many spend more time judging each other and condemning those who have different views.
For me I will continue to love and accept all people whether male, female, white, black, gay, straight, transgender, christian, jew, hindu, atheist, etc without judgment or condemnation.
The thing many forget is that loving and accepting people does not mean we always agree or condone the actions of one another but we can respect each other and treat one another with kindness.
Yes, treating others with respect and friendliness does not always mean we agree but we can accept and show the love of God to each other. Thanks for the comment and link.
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Great piece. We can and should be civil with those with whom we disagree! My take on it: http://www.flyinginthespirit.cuttys.net/2015/11/18/the-graceful-approach/
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No problem, I fixed it. Thanks.
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Considering how your “look in the mirror” comment collapsed, let’s instead move onto your new collection of slurs, although in light of your first failure I’m sure people have already understood the type of poster you are. I’m into proof-texting and am often guilty of using arguments to do with the slippery slope, or so the accusation goes, of course as in the case of every one of your messages, you simply write things without the slightest hint of being able to show the things you’re insisting upon. Though you have also accused me of doing the same sort of thing Jim Gordon does, for which you suggest I ought to “look in the mirror”, with which my conclusion would be to write you consider Jim some sort of proof-texter, poorly gathering portions of the Bible which agree with ideas they’re already comfortable in accepting. Therefore, because you’re happy to support one of our conclusions and not the other, you’re simply satisfied with one style of proof-texting, while being unsatisfied with another, which again makes total sense in light of how you’ve admitted to reading the Scriptures. As you admit to rearranging your priorities base upon your social circles, thus when there’s an influx of some certain sort of people into your household or friendship group (homosexuals for example), you throw out or reinterpret the Bible’s message because of social pressures. Even proof-texters work harder than that, machba.
Thankfully, I’m no proof-texter, or at the least your accusation of proof-texting is unfounded, as is shown by your clear inability to argue with the Scripture I’m sharing, as if there was an issue of the sort you named, I’m sure you could have produced just as easily as I do some proof-texting of your own, for which we would be caught in stalemate. The problem is you’re incapable, as there’s the immediate context, the cultural context, the greater literary context, even an awesome array of historical criteria whereby I’d give your obvious misuse of Scripture thorough background. You insist to having spent much time in discussions of a theological natural, though considering your message recast arguments grounded in the twelve laws of logic as “preaching” I’m going to have to write in love that the quality of discussion you have had must have been extremely poor. Insofar as the slippery slope comment goes, that’s only really an insult in highly liberal (even apostate) circles of “Christian” believers, as it’s always the social reformer who must insist what they’re doing won’t ever go beyond the limits of what they intend (how hopeful on their part). The reality is this: “he who refuses to learn their history is doomed to repeat it.”
I’m writing “Thy will be done, Lord” you’re writing “god’s will isn’t obvious!” I’m writing “Don’t be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” you’re writing “But all of my friends are gay!” I’m writing “Who the Son sets free is free indeed, just allow Jesus into your life.” Then. . .then you’re writing nothing.
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Sorry Jim, accidentally posted this here first (meant to add it to the thread below). Please feel free to delete this one.
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http://www.respectfulconversation.net/hs-conversation/2016/3/22/what-if-im-wrong-1.html
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OSC, this will be my last post to you. Feel free to have the last word.
“Allow me to lay out your views, doing so as kindly as I’m able.”
From my perspective, you have laid out my views very poorly.
Here’s what I’ve learned from your posts. You are a classic “proof-texter” of the Bible. You just grab a handful of verses here and there and think they apply to whatever your argument is. IMHO, this is not only an incorrect way to handle Scripture, it is a very inadequate way. It seriously lacks depth. You also practice classic “slippery slope” argumentation. Volume wise, I’ve probably posted less than 1/4 of what you’ve posted, yet somehow, based on what little I’ve actually said, you feel you’ve been able to lay out my views in a comprehensive fashion. Again I say, wrong.
In my past I’ve spent a lot of time on forums and boards in theological discussion and argumentation, and for where I am at in my life, it is no longer worth it to get into these extended back and forth sessions where we simply preach at each other. Honestly, it is a waste of time. I know that might sound disrespectful, but it’s the truth. There are probably hundreds of blogs out there where these same arguments are taking place. There are probably hundreds of sites that defend either of our views. I’m thankful to have found Jim’s blog because we agree on many things. I will continue to come here and read his posts and may comment from time to time. But I have no interest in continuing to defend my views or answer any more of your impassioned arguments. Fare well!
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Let’s first begin by looking into your claims, before looking into mirrors. As you claim this quote of mine which expresses disapproval has elements in it which are found within my shared material, and the elements are:
“(1) When people write they’re not going to change their view for anybody, (2) that could also include not changing their views even if the person opposing their opinion is God, that to me is so frightening in Jim’s article, (3) as it’s exempting itself from the standards the speaker is laying forth for others.”
(1) I’ve never said I wouldn’t change my views.
(2) Thankfully, having God’s word, which He has superintended so that it’s reached mankind, means I’m not inclined to disagree with His clearly defined Revelation to humanity. Rather it’s people who insist God is an ineffective communicator how run the risk of constantly falling into disagreement with their god.
(3) I’d like you to name where I’m exempting myself from the standards I’m laying forth for others (if you can).
Whether you reply to my honest question or don’t, it’s clear by either choice you will be or have been “suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.”
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“When people write they’re not going to change their view for anybody, that could also include not changing their views even if the person opposing their opinion is God, that to me is so frightening in Jim’s article, as it’s exempting itself from the standards the speaker is laying forth for others.”
This is just as frightening (even more so IMHO) in your own blog. Time to have a look in the mirror.
OSC, I have come to the conclusion that you do not understand where I am coming from, so I will take a cue from our gracious host and simply say “Thank you for your comment”.
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The age you’re referring to, machba, is just as much the age of disinformation as it is an age of information. Yet God doesn’t want you and the true believers to simply know things, He wants you be grow in wisdom, knowledge and wisdom aren’t the same thing. You’re writing to say because you’ve now got an influx of data the tools whereby the same data is unscrambled are rendered useless (like two large men being wedged in a door for trying to enter their favourite restaurant at the same time). Though that’s simply untrue, and further understanding various information, like cultural context and the like, only lead to further reinforcing various opinions. For example, understanding the context in which Romans was written only goes to strengthen the case that Paul wasn’t writing to affirm same sex relations when they wrote their famous letter, with which we’re better equipped to dismiss the members of the disinformation age who would use failed arguments in an attempt to make Paul’s criticism exclusively linking homosexual sex to shire prostitution.
Allow me to lay out your views, doing so as kindly as I’m able. You believe that the Holy Spirit is leading technological advancement to the point of jamming minds so to cause confusion and doubt amidst people’s hearts (never mind that “God isn’t the author of confusion ” according to 1 Cor 14:33), with the ultimate goal being to create ambiguity over God’s Revelation to humanity through the prophets and His Son. With which a generation of people unable to mount a case for the new found things they believe, who support behavior clearly condemned in the religious Scriptures (as is being shown by their opposite numbers), are going stand up in their information addled state and overthrow. . . .orthodox Christianity? The Spirit of Truth, who the Scripture says leads believers into truth, is in your view “leading” people into falsehood, even confusion so that they doubt the Bible, and “guiding these things along” so to make the words of Paul, Peter, James and Christ to no effect due mass confusion and doubt. Yet, my Bible clearly reads:
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ (Ephesians 4).
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Daryl, I agree with you that the Holy Spirit will lead and direct. Here is my experience. For a long time as an evangelical baptist (20+ years) I was pretty confident I understood what was clear “Biblically”. Spent a lot of time reading certain books and leading and teaching college kids in church. However I am by nature open-minded and did a lot of homework and realized that I actually shouldn’t be so confident, that there are different factors to consider for Biblical interpretation (sociological, cultural, chronological, textual and contextual factors, even biases by Biblical interpreters). in other words, I don’t think things are ever as “clear” as we think they are. And I think this should give us great pause to consider which “hills” we are going to defend. And as I’ve mentioned to others in these discussions, we are living in a time, the information age, where we have unprecedented access to knowledge, research and dialogue that enables and enriches our studies and gives us greater insight. On the flip side, this is also really making our brains work harder and causing confusion and doubt. Yet this is our current reality and God is allowing these changes to happen and I don’t think “old school” mentality is really going to stop it. In fact I personally believe the Holy Spirit is in fact guiding these things along and directing us and breaking up old school mentality.
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Isn’t the real problem that many people are simply refusing to have the conversation, they’re instead trying to shut down or ignore anybody who has something to say to the contrary of their many views (regardless of the other side’s reasons). When people write they’re not going to change their view for anybody, that could also include not changing their views even if the person opposing their opinion is God, that to me is so frightening in Jim’s article, as it’s exempting itself from the standards the speaker is laying forth for others. Take an example from history. The Nazi SS soldiers were in some cases professing Christianity, as in they claimed to be true believers and followers of Christ, and all of which while they were slaughtering and harming others physically, they’d even go so far as to murder Germans who didn’t join the cause. Was the Holy Spirit their guide, many would have tried to argue exactly so, and in what way are people going to disprove their claim?
I’d write let’s take our disagreement to the Scriptures, and let’s study and have the conversation, with which the Nazi party would be proven to be totally unchristian, although many modern people would undermine that entire conversation by use of their hermeneutical and religious relativism (though that’s to insult God in Their communication itself). The truth of the entire conversation is like so, unlike in the case of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and every other world religion, the Christian truth isn’t about our search for God, it’s not about the Five Paths, or the Five Pillars, or anything of the sort, it’s not about our pursuit of God but God’s pursuit of us. God came to find you, me and the world, to be our rescue from the jaws of sin and death. When modern people say, in essence, “We can’t come to an accurate conclusion on the Bible,” they’re trying to bury God’s word to humanity.
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So true, following the leading of the Spirit of God within us rather than any human is what is best.
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obviously your comment was directed at me,I do not share the same ill-will or disgust towards those who have a different view than me.To some extent,every blog,comment made,opinions shared are to prove a point,get affirmation,create discussion.My comment concerning the reading of scripture was was not that everyone follow my interpretation,but that the Holy Spirit will lead and direct,and He will lead far better,than me,you,or any other human being.
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Thank you jem.
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Well said! Is amazing how even what you said attracted someone who has to prove a point – that their view is right you see if you just will read the scripture and make sure you follow their interpretation because it’s quite clear you know in black and white just like it encourages us to treat our slaves well. Sometimes I want to just get a sock and a gag on folk like this! Lol. I know you don’t – you just such a good example of following Jesus and expressing His unconditional love. Thank you!
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Thanks for your comment.
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I appreciate that you post opposing views. I think there is a difference between pointing out sins of others(having a board in ones own eye yet worried about the speck in someone elses)…and just opposing something that is clearly sinful according to the scriptures.Obviously,much disagreement abounds with scripture,and having no way of knowing whether or not commentors actually are christians,complicates discussion.The scriptures can never be correctly understood by unbelievers and truthfully,much of the discussion from the last post, i would never have with friends who are unbelievers unless they asked my opinion ,or brought the discussion up. There are “grey” areas of scripture(though I don”t believe the area discussed is such),and I will just close by encouraging all to read the scriptures…and for those who don’t know where to start,I would suggest the gospel of John,Have a blessed day.
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