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Archive for March, 2023

By Mike Edwards

I wrote HERE my personal story with my best friend in our inability to discuss our different spiritual beliefs. We used to be in total agreement until my views begin changing of what God may really be like. We have agreed to disagree, and thankfully still have a great relationship. Part of the challenge may be our long history together. But I am convinced there are ways for friends to discuss their vastly different beliefs, whether they be religious or political in nature, though it does take two to tango.

What quality is essential for open conservations?

Talk to others like you want to be talked to. You must control your emotions. Discuss or fight fairly or forget it! Disagreements are normal in relationships. At least one party must initiate the possibility of an open conversation. Time will tell if others will follow your lead. When discussing if sexual abuse is wrong, most rational people will agree. If you are discussing what God is really like, you may be wrong. Unless you have met God in person! If you are discussing what policies are best for the greater good (immigration, climate, covid mandates), you may be wrong.

What societal conditions make open conversations difficult?

One may not feel confident defending their belief, but there are other reasons why we avoid discussions. If only one opinion is presented in main news sources, those with differing beliefs than the common narrative are often shut down and thought of as conspiracists – not exactly a conversation starter. Also, certainty rather than uncertainty comforts individuals psychologically. One may believe what seems to be the popular narrative because unknowing can create confusion or anxiety. Disagreeing with the popular science narrative can lead to being ostracized. Disagreeing with church folks about God’s character can lead to isolation. When universal agreement doesn’t exist, one must be allowed to form their own opinions since uncertainty exists.

How do we determine truth from uncertainty?

Openminded people accept they may be wrong. We can know we are right when there seems to be almost universal agreement on the topic of concern. Most don’t defend rape, sexual abuse, or stealing from others. But rational people do not agree on matters such as immigration policies, climate policies, marijuana legalization, if God condemns gays, etc. We must be willing to defend our views among one another rather than shut down those we disagree with. Those fortunate enough to live in a democratic society must accept the vote of the majority when comes to law setting. You can still defend your position in hopes of a future vote.

What to do when one refuses to allow your opinions 

We can strive to be the better person in conversation. But we have every right to oppose those who refuse to accept uncertainty and fight fairly, regardless of their motives. This can be done civilly but lack of freedom of speech is important for future generations. Leaders must be held accountable to be open-minded than certain. We can try to engage with those who insist on certainty when it doesn’t exist, but in time one may need to move on. We can stop labeling those who disagree with our biblical interpretations as heretics. We can stop calling those who disagree with our views of science or politics as conspiracists. Imagine how different as a people we would be if religious and political folks were open to discussions for the common goal of pursing the greater good!

How Can We Have Discussions With Those Having Different Beliefs?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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By Mike Edwards

I hope some readers can relate to my experience and journey with a best friend for decades. Many of us are done with religion but not God. We have stopped going to the institutional church for many reasons such as we just can’t agree with the God being preached. But we still love discussing God with others. Those not into God may assume believers have a hidden agenda to change their beliefs. But shouldn’t we be able to at least talk to God-interested friends?

History of friendship can be a problem

I wrote here My Story – Spiritual Journey. My parents were into God and for whatever reason I never rejected such a belief. I continued to attend church until I was about fifty. I became somewhat of a prophetiser in my twenties and thirties. I suppose being taught that unbelievers were going to burn in Hell forever after death didn’t help. Turned out a literal Hell is doubtful according to the Bible. See here.  My passionate and dogmatic ways carried over with my children. When one kid mentioned evolution as a way humans came into existence, I wasn’t exactly the most open-minded Dad. I have apologized, but I am not sure my friend or children believe I have changed when it comes to discussing God.

One challenge is discussions about God can undermine one’s faith

I should share my best friend and I use to have the same beliefs about God. I believe my best friend avoids discussion about God because it may create doubts in their own faith. To question what one has heard in church all their life can lead to uncertainties about God. When challenged if Hell is real though taught all your life Hell is real, it can create anxiety what else taught may be in question. Speaking to a questioner like me isn’t always comforting. One reason I left the church was because I felt my skepticism was divisive for newcomers who came because of what leadership taught. It didn’t help that leadership didn’t exactly invite differing opinions of what God may really be like. 

Another potential reason conversations are difficult

We must examine if we control our emotions when discussing our beliefs. I think I do now. Do you? I mentioned some friends may not enjoy a discussion about God as much as we do, as challenges to one’s belief can cause anxiety. Another challenge is if the culture supports discussing diverse opinions.  Are those with differing beliefs than the common narrative shut down and labelled conspiracists? The Church often labels those with different opinions of God as heretics. When only one political or religious opinion is presented, many are quick to consider their friends conspiracists or heretics – not exactly a conversation help with your best friend or any friend.

Can a friendship continue with important conversation challenges?

I have shared what I think are the main reasons for a stalemate with my best friend. The reader may want to explore their own personal reasons. I consider myself NOW an open-minded person, but legitimate reasons may exist for discussing differing opinions between two friends. Discussing God for some may be the same as discussing politics. The differences are just too far apart. My friend and I have found it is best to agree to disagree, but somehow we still have an a great relationship. It could even be better though. We share other interests. Personally, I still hope someday we can discuss the most important thing in our lives – a relationship with God.

Why Can’t Two God-Believing Friends Discuss God?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

 Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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by Michael Donahoe

I hear this term often these days, so I finally decided to look up the definition and see exactly what it meant.

It seems we hear it mainly as a negative thing, yet when I looked up the term in the dictionary, it does not seem so negative.

While looking online at dictionary.com, I found that woke means: having an active awareness of systemic injustices and prejudices, especially those involving the treatment of ethnic, racial, or sexual minorities; promoting inclusive policies or ideologies that welcome or embrace ethnic, racial, or sexual minorities.

I then went to merriam-webster.com and found a similar definition: aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues, especially issues of racial and social justice.

From there I went to urbandictionary.com and found the following: When this term became popularized, initially the meaning of this term was when an individual becomes more aware of the social injustice. Or basically, any current affairs related like biased, discrimination, or double-standards.

In an article by journalist Dan Rather, he describes woke as originating in African American English to mean an “awareness of racial and social justice. And in another of his articles he describes woke as a way of thinking, an approach to gaining a better understanding, a grappling with “important facts.” To be “woke” is to be aware.

A March For Our Lives founder David Hogg, describes being woke as choosing reality over conspiracy, hope over fear, courage over cowardice and empathy over cruelty for a better future. Woke is about addressing past injustices of our country- not because it’s easy but because it is hard and necessary to create a more perfect union.

So, what I determined was if woke means anything like any of these definitions, then yes, I am woke and proud to be so. I do not see a problem with being aware and concerned for others and the prejudices and injustices they have suffered, or still suffer.

I guess you will have to read back over the definitions and decide for yourself. For me, I will stick with being woke as being aware of systemic injustices and prejudices; actively attentive to important societal facts and issues, especially issues of racial and social justice. Not only being aware, but doing what I can to promote acceptance and equality for all people, no matter what they look like, where they are from, what they believe or who they love.

***

Michael Donahoe was added as a writer as his views fit perfectly with those of Done with Religion. He also writes on Substack at https://myopinionblog.substack.com/

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By Mike Edwards

Christian leaders and companies use the term “biblical truths,” but these same leaders criticize those who dogmatically claim “the science says.” The truth is that it isn’t science if there isn’t debate. What we may think is science today may be updated in a year. Biblical truth, according to one’s interpretation, is also debatable. Both Christian leaders and government health officials must engage in healthy debate. Religion and science play God (Superior) in the lives of others by claiming they know the truth and we are too stupid to decide for ourselves! 

Christian leaders claim certainty concerning “biblical truths”

The Bible as literature has to be interpreted. Many claim to be certain about God according to the Bible, but biblical scholars who have a deep respect for Scriptures don’t agree what the Bible says about gays, women, and hell, and other moral issues. See here.  See here.  See here.  Besides, even if we agreed on interpretation, we can’t prove God controlled the thoughts of the writers of the Bible in conveying a perfect view of what God was like. The Bible is still valuable as recorded history of God with the Israelites, challenging us to think about what God is really like.

Christian leaders though accuse Government officials of claiming certainty

Many Christians leaders accuse the current government Administration and health officials of misleading by maintaining their interpretation is scientific truth. They argue it isn’t science without debate. Well, it isn’t biblical truth because you say it is according to your interpretation. It is true science is fluent. Drugs are often approved initially, only to be pulled from the shelves later after causing death. It is also true we can’t prove God exist much less that our view of what God is like is correct. ‘Uncertainty” falls both ways – religion and science.

How to live in a land of uncertainty 

Certain absolutes are universal and obvious to all rational beings, whether it is found in the Bible or science.  Does anyone reading this not believe physical or sexual abuse is wrong? All agree we shouldn’t be lied to. Adultery only isn’t wrong in the eyes of the betrayer. Christian leaders must admit uncertainty in the arena of non-universal, biblical beliefs. Christian leaders then can rightly demand debate when it involves responding to a pandemic, taxes, climate change, or immigration. 

How Leaders Can Proceed

It is not right to claim certainty when you may be wrong. When universal agreement doesn’t exist, it should be obvious that one must be allowed to form their own opinions since uncertainty exists. We must stop being so damn certain of our understanding of God according to the Bible, especially when our interpretations are contrary to our moral intuitions. The central message about God in the Bible seems to be to strive to love others like you want to be love. I will debate anyone who thinks a loving God, by Jesus’ example, encourages treating others like shit. We can stop labeling those who disagree with our biblical interpretations as heretics. We can stop calling those who disagree with our views of science as conspiracists. We must fight for freedom to debate opinions!

How Christian Leaders Are Hypocrites In The “Truth” War!

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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By Mike Edwards

We must respect the opinions of rational people whether the topic is religion, science, or politics. It is not easy to discern people’s motives for shutting down discussion. Sometimes you can only look at the results of their actions, such as what gains are made by refusing debates. We reject controlling behaviors in our marriage or friendships, for they often lead to domestic violence or bullying. Church and public leaders must be held accountable to not always presume certainty. See the Sin of Certainty

“When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you’re only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” – George R. R. Martin

Any opinion must have the right to debate  

I believe judging one by the color of their skin than character is racist and immoral. But we must allow freedom to voice opinions, as long as one isn’t clearly promoting physical harm to others. I rather one’s racism be out in the open. Racism must be defeated in the battle of ideas and discussions. I like my chances! Did you know it is debatable if the covid vaccines have more benefits than risks? Do you know it is debatable whether God condemns gays according the Bible?  I question one’s motives when unwilling to debate their beliefs. Personally, I desire to convince naysayers in something I am convinced I’m right about and feel strongly about.  

Certainty rather than uncertainty helps individuals avoid anxiety 

I wrote here  how individuals avoid anxiety by not discussing their beliefs with others who believe differently. Individuals also prefer certainty from Leaders to avoid anxiety. I imagine most Leaders prefer being seen as knowing (certain) than “not knowing.” Most humans desire to integrate with a group, get along with its members, and benefit from them. Both disagreeing with the popular science narrative or disagreeing with church leadership about God’s character puts us in the land of uncertainty. Leaders though may have other motives than to just avoid anxiety.

Leaders fear lack of security 

The most benign explanation for quashing the opinions of others is not necessarily the fear of losing power as much as the fear of losing security (one’s livelihood). In my counseling career, I often questioned the narrative concerning psychotropic medications. A client is owed a discussion of both the risks and benefits of such an intervention for mental healthiness. I didn’t always share my opinion with psychiatrists in charge. I don’t fear conflict. But I am sure I feared potential loss of a job because I was in the minority and low on the totem pole. In politics losing the perceived popular opinion might not lead to reelection. Pastors risk being kicked out of the pulpit.

Leaders fear losing power 

The most evil explanation for quashing the opinions of others is one’s desire for control and power over others – whether motive is profit, etc.  When only one side is presented, control and power often advance for a time at least. Control and power flourish when others are not allowed to discuss alternative opinions in the public arena. The only way we can judge if this is one’s motive is by demanding answers as to why one is refusing debate. Religion and science are playing God (Superior) in the lives of others by claiming they know the truth and we are too stupid to decide for ourselves!

It doesn’t matter if you think you are right!

You may be wrong! When universal agreement doesn’t exist, it should be obvious that one must be allowed to form their own opinions. Let’s stop labeling those who disagree with our biblical interpretations as heretics. Let’s stop calling those who disagree with our views of science as conspiracists. The bedrock of science use to be considered an educated guess based on the information we have currently have and could change in the future. Religious folks hide behind their interpretation of a Book. We don’t all agree if the Bible opposes women priests or preachers or condemns gays. Canceling the opinions of others must be stood up against and defeated!

Why Do Leaders Cancel Others’ Opinions?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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by Jim Gordon

What do people think of when they hear the word Christian? With some of the discriminatory and hateful happenings recently with extreme groups who claim to be Christian and with the rise of Christian Nationalism, I feel it is getting a little confusing what the real meaning is.

My wife and I have seriously questioned whether we should continue to use the word Christian to identify us or not. Basically, it all boils down to what we mean by Christian.

If being a Christian is being part of a religion that meets in a building on a particular day and follows set doctrines based on what denomination we belong to, then no, we are not Christians. If being a Christian is considered being part of a group that follows various spiritual beliefs such as Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Baptists, Methodists, Charismatics and others, then no, we are not Christians. If being a Christian is being part of a group that is opposed to all other religions and only accepts those who believe like they do, then no, we are not Christians. If being a Christian has anything to do with religion, political power, hatred, exclusion, discrimination and such, then no, we are not Christians.

In Acts 11:26, the disciples were first called Christians by people in Antioch. They were called Christians because they were acting like Christ. The people there were calling them little Christ’s because of the way they showed the love and power of Jesus. Now, if that is what is meant by being a Christian, then we are all in.

There are many ways we can described ourselves…believers, Christ followers, disciples of Jesus, people of faith, people of the way or even Christians. Yet, the name itself does not really matter. What matters is how we live our lives. Is Christ preeminent? Are we living as one with him? Are we allowing the love of Christ to live through us, accepting others, loving others, including others and being little Christ’s to all we meet? If not, the name itself really makes no difference because we are not being like Christ.

We should not worry so much about the name we use, but by the way we live. When people see us, they should see Jesus. He lives within us and we should be known for the love we have for him and for our fellow man. We are to let Christ live through us each and every day to everyone we meet.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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