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God Must Be Perfectly Good Humanly Speaking Or Not Worth Believing In!

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , , , on June 2, 2025|

by Mike Edwards

It takes faith to believe God exists since there is no visible evidence, but surely most assume any God worth believing in must be perfectly morally good. Dennis Prager argues according to the contemporaneous ancient Near East Babylonian story, the gods destroyed humanity because humans made so much noise keeping the gods awake. I couldn’t believe in such a God because of my understanding of genuine love required by a loving God.

God must be good intuitively! 

If there is a God, they must be perfectly loving. Many of us left organized religion, not God, because claims about God’s character was contrary to our deepest moral intuitions. It doesn’t make sense why a Creator wouldn’t love the same way we humans believe we were seemingly created by a supposed Creator to love (aka goodness). Even those who try to defend God’s violent ways in the Bible agree, or they wouldn’t attempt to rationalize why a supposed inspired/infallible Book by God reports bad actions contributed to God. We can’t always understand what perfect love is – to help a drug addict or let them hit bottom – but even the Bible assume we can understand God’s perfect love through human lens – “be perfect, as your heavenly God is perfect.” (Mt 5:48).

God can only be understood through “goodness” lens anyway

If God is bad or evil at times, we can only understand such actions by comparing/exploring what is good. If God was supposedly unloving, we can only pursue such knowledge by discussing what true love it. It seems we can only rely on human reasoning what is good or common moral sense whether interpreting a Book, judging one’s actions toward others, or understanding what God’s love is like. We know God’s goodness by assuming not bad! 

How do we know what “good” is? 

Parents create/have children to be loved and teach how to love others. An existing Creator surely creates desiring to love and hopes we love others as parents should love their children. We all seem to know the question we ought to ask ourselves – am I loving others perfectly? Self-evident morals aren’t hidden in any Holy Book. We all have an inborn sense of good and evil. We may not always be certain the most loving action, unless my son or son-in laws mistreat women!  There is a reason anyone who justifies selfishness is often friendless.  

Why do some argue perfect human and Godly love aren’t always the same?

The Bible doesn’t always describe God in perfect human moral terms, so may God-believers resort to suggesting God’s actions are sometimes a mystery. Believers assume God must be perfectly good so rationalizations are made. See 9 Reasons To Not Trust The Bible’s Claims About God! Many assume that the entire Bible is approved/inspired by God, so they must explain why the Bible reports God acting violently or destructively. But a Book can’t be the definitive word about God since subject to different interpretations, and we can’t prove God always controlled what the writers understood and wrote about God.

So What….If God Is Good Or Not? 

Why believe in or desire to have a relationship with a God you can’t respect or attempt to understand? Many may reject or resist God if perceived as authoritative versus nurturing. See here. As stated, many of us left the institutional church because leaders kept insisting characteristics of God, according to the Bible, were contrary to our moral sense. Others inclined to believe in God may hesitate because of what God is described by Christians as supposedly being like. God doesn’t send people to a torturous afterlife for choices made briefly here on earth. The majority of people end up believing in the religion, whether Christian, Buddhist, or Muslim, where born. God isn’t a God of chance! God likely gives all a chance now or after death to believe or not. God is exactly who you imagine a loving God is like – unless you’re a selfish human being.  Then, good luck having genuine friendships!

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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Healing Divisions within the Body of Christ

Posted in Acceptance of Others, Bible, christian living, Ekklesia, institutional church, Jesus follower, Love of God, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , , on April 4, 2025|

by Michael Donahoe

When I think about the institutional church world today, I am disturbed that it is divided into so many different groups and denominations. We will all have a little different interpretation of the Bible, a little different understanding of doctrine and we will not agree on everything. Yet, we certainly should be able to love one another and accept each other even when we differ on these things. Afterall, we are all following the example of Jesus and we all love God.

It is hard to understand why this happens when God tells us we are to be one as Jesus and God are one. We have to understand that we are human and it is easy to lose sight of our first love. If we could only stay focused on Christ, listening for the guidance of the Spirit, loving God and loving others we could look past our differences and love one another with a godly love.

The problem seems to be that we are unwilling to see any other viewpoint other than our own. There are those such as my wife and I that do not attend an organized church. There are those who attend a church every time the doors are open. Some attend a house church, some meet with fellow believers at cafe’s, parks or restaurants and others meet in their homes over dinner. We should accept these differences and love one another rather than argue over who is right and who is wrong.

There really is not a right or wrong way to assemble together and we need to stop expecting everyone to do things exactly the same way. We should respect others viewpoints and focus on loving them rather than expecting them to see things our way.

Things will not change until we start focusing on what is common in our lives rather than the differences. The common focus should be on Christ, the head of the body. After that, we should focus on loving others rather than arguing about the differences in interpretation.

We also should keep in mind that we are all constantly changing as God brings new truth to us. We are all learning and changing as we are ready to accept new truths. The opinions I had ten years ago are completely different from some of the views I have now. I am sure in another five or ten years they will change again as the Spirit leads me into more truth.

Sometimes we are afraid to accept others interpretations because we feel if we do not hold to our way of thinking, we are compromising and not standing up for what we believe. We do not have to give up how we interpret the Bible or whether we attend church or not, but neither should we think everyone else is wrong. Besides, we really are not responsible for convicting people of sin, leading them into truth or even saving them. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. We are told to love God and love others.

When we realize we are each equally important functioning parts of the body, and Christ is the head, we can start to change how we feel about those who do not see things the way we do. We can begin to accept our brothers and sisters in Christ just as they are, realizing we are walking as one with God even in our differences.

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Michael Donahoe was added as a writer as his views fit perfectly with those of Done with Religion. He also writes on Substack at https://personalmeanderings.substack.com/

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A Cheap Counterfeit

Posted in christian living, Jesus follower, Kingdom of God, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , , on April 1, 2025|

by Norman Mitchell
Author of A Wild Frontier
https://thewildfrontier.wordpress.com/

Christianity, as it is practiced today, is nothing more than a religion which closely resembles most other religions. It holds the power to bind but not to free.

Photo by Tima Miroshnichenko

Religion has always been a human-powered effort to deal with the problem of human violence and appease an angry God. It’s really very simple. Humans, like animals, are instinctually primed for violence. Unlike animals, however, humans have a conscience. We universally recognize that intra-species violence is a blight on nature, yet we all fall prey to its allure. We recognize that there is something wrong with allowing ourselves to be governed by our animal instincts. We know that morality is a thing to which we should aspire. Our eyes have been opened—slightly—and we know good and evil.

Humans have always done two things to try to fix the problem of the human condition. First, we have always enforced rules governing conduct with the threat of violence. We call this politics. Second, we have always enforced rules governing conduct using cultural pressure. We call this religion. 

Clerics, the self-appointed overlords of Religion, use two powerful tools to keep the masses docile: guilt and ritual. Guilt is the bad feeling you get when you violate your moral code. Ritual is a semi-hypnotic process that suppresses rational thought and induces lethargy but gives people an intense feeling of belonging to a community. Religion induces guilt, then uses ritual and cultural influence to assuage that guilt. Guilt is the symptom, ritual is the “remedy” that lessens the effect of the symptom.

Ritual, however, does not cure the root of the problem. If guilt does not return of its own accord, it is induced. Either way, people become addicted to the treatment. It’s like taking a pain-killer so you don’t feel a gangrenous wound. You keep taking it in ever-increasing doses so that you don’t feel the pain, but the wound never heals.

Clerics also exploit one of the most primal of human instincts: the craving for certainty. They provide a formulaic method of appeasing The Angry God, and they present the formula with such confidence, that their subjects feel quite certain that they are doing the right thing. The laity gratefully accepts the formula, not recognizing that fulfilling the formula is never quite possible. The impossible formula strings people along, making them indefinitely beholden to the cleric and his religious institution.

Clerics justify this manipulation by pointing out that they’re using it to encourage people to do good, which (temporarily) suppresses human violence. Describing religion as “the opiate of the masses” was the one thing Marx got right.

Religion requires institutionalism—the fabrication of a conceptual structure that includes an artificial hierarchy. Institutions are always co-opted by exploiters who use its artificial hierarchy to gain status.

Everything Christ did undermined religion. He came to establish a divine kingdom in which he is the Head and his followers operate in community as members of the Body. Life in the Body reveals a God-powered mode of being that Paul described as a “new creature” and that Frank Viola describes as a “new species.”)

The God-powered mode of being flips religious dogma on its head. It frees people from guilt. It destroys the foundations of artificial hierarchies. Every member contributes. Every member is valued. The humblest servant is exalted, and the least becomes the greatest.

Christ broke people free from the guilt that bound them to religion. He ushered in a kingdom that heals wounds rather than treats symptoms. He shone light on the failings of the Jewish religion of his day, but as his words began to gain influence, people started a new religion that perverted Christ’s message and used his name to gain unearned brand credibility.

Would-be clerics fused fundamental elements of religion with Christ’s words and invented the Christian Religion that is now the world’s most insidious counterfeit of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Because such statements conjure such strong emotion, I suppose I should offer the usual caveat that I do not believe that all the people involved with the Christian Religion are counterfeits. I believe that many, if not most of them, are sincerely doing what they believe God requires. Rather the religion—the institutionalized, human-powered, ritual-driven system—is the counterfeit that keeps people in a state of spiritual serfdom.

The Christian Religion is a clever but cheap counterfeit of the Kingdom of Heaven. My desire is that more Christians would realize this and follow Christ freed from the shackles of religion.

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What Is A Religious Done

Posted in Acceptance of Others, christian living, Ekklesia, institutional church, Jesus follower, Kingdom of God, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , on March 12, 2025|

by Michael Donahoe

In recent times, we seem to hear more about the religious dones. Different surveys talk about the nones, the dones and the religious unaffiliated. This means different things to different people.

I think many church people and Christian people think the same thing on this topic. If you are a religious none, you have left God. If you are a religious done and do not go to church, you have decided not to follow God and are in a backslidden state.

I do not believe that at all. Being done with religion to me means done with organized religion and institutional church, but not done with God. We are done with religion, but only because we want a more meaningful walk following the example of Jesus. So basically, we leave the organization to enhance our walk with God.

For about twenty years, I increasingly became more and more disillusioned with church. I sat there week after week thinking there has to be more, God certainly did not intend that following him meant nothing more than looking at the back of the head of the person in front of me. We sit for an hour listening to a few other people do all the singing and preaching, then get up and go home for the week.

I felt that the church emphasized more that we listen to the pastor and follow the Bible rather than learn how to listen to and follow the Spirit that was within us. I realized that we no longer needed a middle man because we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we find the Kingdom of God within us.

I remember how afraid I was to ask questions because people would think I was losing my faith. I was tired of hearing exclusive teaching and discrimination by telling us how bad certain people were and that we needed to stay away from them. The only exception was if we used every opportunity to witness to them. The church would say everyone was welcome, but then exclude them from participation until they changed and became like the church expected.

I could not understand why there were so many different types of churches and denominations, all supposedly following the same God yet being mad and arguing with people from different churches.

I think I could go on and on, but I just got so tired and dissatisfied with church that my wife and I decided to stop going and see how things went. Well, for us, they went better. That dissatisfaction seemed to disappear. I started having relationships with others that I was told I should have no association. I started asking questions and finding that it was OK. I started finding new friends in various places and they did not ruin my fellowship or belief in God.

I know many people who enjoy going to church to be with others and that is OK. Yet I know others who got fed up with church and had issues that made them mad. For us, that was not the case. We just felt so unhappy and unfulfilled while in the institutional church we had to move on.

I think most people think that if you are a done, you have completely given up on God. They think you became an atheist and want nothing to do with God, when actually it is just religion itself we are done with, and we no longer want to spend time in a building that just does not mean what it used to mean.

After fifteen years outside the institutional church, we can honestly say we are happier and more fulfilled. We rely more on learning to hear from the Spirit within, we are free from specific doctrines and beliefs found in religion and we depend more on God to lead us to meaningful fellowship with all people as we walk in the freedom we have found outside the walls of religion.

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Michael Donahoe was added as a writer as his views fit perfectly with those of Done with Religion. He also writes on Substack at https://personalmeanderings.substack.com/

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What Humanly Is The Hardest Thing To Do?

Posted in Acceptance of Others, christian living, Community, Love of God, tagged , , , , , , , , , on December 29, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

Gad Saad writes that one willingness to change their mind may be the biggest challenge that people face. Why is changing our mind so hard, and how do we pursue being more openminded? I can still remember decades ago my son coming home from school and declaring evolution was a viable belief. I passionately denied based on my understanding of the Bible and Genesis. I have since admitted to him I could be wrong. It took a while for me to be more open-minded.

The Bible can be the problem for many Christians 

The Bible can’t be the definitive word about God since subject to interpretation (different scholarly views of the same passages). Besides, we can’t prove God controlled if the writers always accurately portrayed God, even if our interpretations were perfect. Biblical scholars who have a deep respect for the Bible don’t agree what God thinks about gays, women, hell, and other moral issues. Gays are condemned and women’s leadership roles are limited, despite their gifts, in God’s name. Supposedly, a fiery torturous afterlife awaits infidels! A Creator surely loves the way creatures intuitively think they ought to love. We pursue such love through common moral sense. 

Questioning one’s beliefs can be painful 

For one to question a main belief they have been taught in church all their life, such as if Hell is real, can create doubts about other beliefs they have been taught.  Perceived certainty rather than uncertainty is more comforting psychologically. Unknowing can create confusion or anxiety. Anxiety is avoided by not discussing one’s beliefs with others who believe differently. 

We tend to think with our emotions rather than exploring evidence 

We often don’t change our mind because we make decisions based on our feelings than cognitions. Should we make buying decisions based on if we want it as opposed to whether we can afford it? Should we date or marry someone based only on feelings or based on their actions? In our recent election, many voted based on there feelings about a particular candidate. Without specific evidence one is Hitler incarnated or truly a Communist, I am convinced a wiser choice is to vote based on policies/cognitions I believe best for the future of my children, grandchildren, and country.

We often don’t change our mind because we avoid contrarian discussion

We often avoid discussions with those with different opinions for various reasons. The problem is the path to change often is considering opposing beliefs. It isn’t science without debate. Theologians who claim their views are God’s Word and don’t invite debate – are they afraid to defend their views in public so individuals can decide for themselves and possibly disagree. Theologians who hide behind “God said,” are claiming to be holier than those than disagree with them. Politicians who don’t invite debate – don’t trust them further than you can throw them.

Changing one’s mind requires admitting you were wrong 

Changing one’s mind in public requires humility. I am not claiming to be innocent, just stating the obvious. I trust more those who openly acknowledge when they were wrong. Trust religious leaders, politicians, or scientists who openly admit they were wrong and explain why they believed as they did initially. Many remain silent and hope you don’t notice their change in opinion.

Changing one’s mind can have consequences

Disagreeing with church leadership about God’s character can lead to isolation or being blacklisted. Thriving societies must support individuals being allowed to form their own opinions without threats when universal agreement isn’t obvious. Groupthink is just human nature. Most humans desire to integrate with a group, get along with its members, and benefit from them. Discussing opposing beliefs can be uncomfortable. The loner must fend for himself. If you leave your group, your options are limited to joining the opposing group or being alone. For most of us, neither option is appealing. Being your own person is a tough business. 

Changing one mind means embracing uncertainty 

Certainty is an illusion unless talking about universal moral sins such as rape or incest. Adultery isn’t only wrong in the eyes of the betrayer. Assume uncertainty if you have one rational friend who believes differently from you whether it’s about religion or politics. Those who claim certainty often are naïve and may have other internal motives. Most decisions are not black and white and require open debate. Couples who claim certainty are headed toward divorce or a sucky relationship. God-followers and religious leaders seem hell-bent in telling people what they must believe about God according to their understanding and interpretation of the Bible. Politicians who refuse debate of their policies are no different. Leaders play God (Superior) in the lives of others by claiming to know the truth and we can’t decide for ourselves. 

Civil discussions are critical in the pursuit of truth 

Obviously, we may also avoid disagreements because such discussions can get heated. We must control our emotions when discussing our beliefs. We must talk to others like we want to be talked to. We must stop labelling others. We often are quick to consider or call others heretics or conspiracists when differing in religion or politics. How about thinking one has a different opinion than resorting to name calling!

  • We must stop thinking our views are morally superior to those we disagree with unless speaking of universal accepted moral truths
  • We must handle differences with physical and emotional civility, accepting that misinformation isn’t opinions that don’t agree with our own
  • We can begin conversations by looking for areas we agree
  • We can defend our reasoning, respect the opinions of others, and commit to pursuit of truth

What Humanly Is The Hardest Thing To Do?

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

Photo For Facebook

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His Sheep Hear His Voice But What Does It Sound Like

Posted in christian living, institutional church, Jesus follower, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , , , on December 24, 2024|

(the loud voices of religion or the quiet voice of the Holy Spirit)

by Jim Gordon

It seems that in Christianity today, there are a wide variety of voices to be heard. Many are loud and obvious, others are quiet and hard to hear. It seems the most important voice is often quiet and hard to hear.

As followers of Jesus, our goal is to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit that lives within us. It is a quiet, calm, still voice that is often overlooked. Sadly, we do not seem to hear much teaching within most churches about listening for the Holy Spirit.

Within the church, there are many voices demanding our attention. The voice of the pastor, the voice of the religious system and its many doctrines, the voice of big-named evangelists blaring from our TVs, even the Bible without the guidance of the Spirit. Here in the US, there are also many voices of politicians telling us what we should believe and who we should follow. All these voices can act like graffiti which blurs the view of the important voice we should be seeking.

In his book, ‘Beneath the Graffiti: A De-churched Christian’s Search for Christianity’ author CJ Penn points out many cases where we listen to the wrong voices. Unfortunately, these voices are often much louder than the still, quiet voice of the Spirit, and many times blurs the voice we should be hearing. In his book, he shows the difference between man-led Christianity and Jesus-led Christianity, plus emphasizes the importance of the power of the Spirit within us.

I personally feel the institutional church today has failed its members by not teaching how to listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit. I think religion would prefer we listen to the pastor and church doctrine rather than learn how to hear from the Spirit who is within.

I grew up in the church system, and ended up spending fifty-years within it. From the first time my parents took me to church as a child, all the way through until my wife and I decided to leave the walls of religion, I do not remember being taught how to listen for the voice of the Spirit. We were told the Spirit was given to teach us, and we were told the Spirit is within us, but other than that, I was mostly clueless on how to listen and understand what the Spirit was saying. I was told that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the Kingdom of God is within us. Yet, anything in regard to how to listen, hear and understand was not part of the teaching.

Many people say God only speaks through the Bible, yet the Bible on its own is only a book. The Bible tells us about God and can lead us to the Word of God (Jesus), but without the Spirit bringing to life the words we read, we are really left to our personal views and opinions and what others have told us the written word means.

Now, I do believe the Spirit can speak to us through the Bible and through other people, yet, it is the Spirit that makes the difference. Apart from the guidance of the Spirit, words of the Bible and words of other humans are just that, words. I often wonder why so many people are more impressed with written words and words of others rather than trying to hear the voice of the Spirit. People are quick to point out that we cannot trust our inner feelings or inner spiritual intuitions. Yet for me, to ignore the Spirit of God, the God we love and worship, the Spirit that Jesus said he would send to teach us and comfort us, is very frustrating. Truthfully, we are taught more to ignore and distrust the inner leading, and trust more the words of other human beings. This does not make sense to me.

The only way to get past all the different views and opinions is to focus on Jesus. Listen for the quiet voice of the Spirit from within who will teach us and lead us into truth. That is not to say we are all going to think and feel the same way on everything. God deals with us personally and in different ways. The problem is when we are shown something or led in a particular way, we expect everyone to see it our way and believe the same thing.

We can learn and be encouraged by reading the Bible with the guidance of the Spirit. We can learn and be encouraged through fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ with the guidance of the Spirit. Yet we seem to forget the most important truth, which is the Spirit is within us. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We have the mind of Christ. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

So, to say all this I still have to admit that after all the years in institutional religion, I do not have an exact answer. I, like many in the church, were never taught how to listen for the Spirit. As time passes and I think more about the fact that the Spirit lives within me, I have come to really pay attention when I get an unusual feeling of peace, or a feeling of just knowing something and being at peace that it is right or wrong. I even had dreams a few times where I heard an inner voice in regard to some specific issue and when I woke up, I acted on it and found the answer I needed. I do not say every dream is from God or every instinct we have is the Holy Spirit, but these are ways the Spirit can lead us. We seem to think we need to clearly hear an audible voice to know it is the Spirit, but I think we need to learn to focus on the inner intuitions and sense of peace. Unfortunately, we very often ignore that quiet leading from within, and as I mentioned before, there are many louder, more obvious voices demanding our attention.

In Christ, we are all his children, and no one should be looked up to or revered more than anyone else. We should stop putting all our hope in other people, the church, the Bible, doctrines and religious rules. Focus on listening for the Holy Spirit who is within us. The Spirit will teach us truth and guide us in the way we are to go, if only we pay attention and respond to that leading.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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Differences Among Christians

Posted in Acceptance of Others, christian living, Love of God, tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , on December 5, 2024|

by Jim Gordon

When we think about our fellow Christians, we should think about the love, acceptance and fellowship we can have with other believers. Unfortunately, with all the different religious doctrines, denominations, interpretations and various versions of the Bible, it seems there are always times when we run into conflict and are not so loving to one another.

Each of us as brothers or sisters in Christ seem to want it our way. Our church, our interpretation, our version of the Bible. We each feel that we are right and feel the need to distance ourselves from those who feel differently.

Have you noticed how religion wants to set the rules so each of us know what it takes to be a good Christian, all according to a particular doctrine or church organization? Do this, don’t do that, stay away from this and make sure you participate in that. We think we have to be in every service and be active with this group or that group. If you are not reading a particular version of the Bible, you are just wasting your time, or if you are not part of a church you are backslidden, at least that is the way some fellow Christians make you feel. Rules, rules, rules.

Maybe it is time to stop arguing over versions, interpretations, church attendance and such and start focusing on Jesus, who is to be our first love. If we can focus on what Jesus told us to do, love God and love others, we should be able to love and accept others even in our differences.

Focusing on Jesus and following the guidance of the Spirit can often lead us into ways we did not expect to go. Many of us begin to ask questions, have doubts and deconstruct our faith. This does not mean we lose our faith or walk away from God. No, we actually draw closer to God because we depend on the leading of the Spirit that lives within us.

The thing is, when we find common ground in our faith in Jesus, when we love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind, we become able to look past the minor differences, the different religious doctrines, denominations, interpretations and various versions of the Bible. We look at each other as fellow believers following the Spirit on many different paths, yet continually moving forward in a close fellowship with God. Keep in mind we are all children of God trying our best to follow the Spirit and be pleasing to our God. It is time to stop fighting against each other and begin to love one another as Jesus loves us. Do not let the minor differences come between the love we can have for one another and the things we can learn through fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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What I Am Hanging Onto

Posted in christian living, Jesus follower, Love of God, tagged , , , , , , on November 20, 2024|

by Glenn Hager

It is so easy to enumerate what I am done with when it comes to religion. It is profoundly more difficult to figure out what to hang onto. I feel like I should occasionally ask myself this question to see if I am total heretic or just a free spirit.

Less and less, is an accurate description of what I am hanging onto, but I am hanging onto those things tighter and tighter.

I could make a massive list of stuff I let go of and another massive list of stuff I don’t know. But this list will be short.

I am hanging onto Jesus.

He is my model for how to live and it’s a model I very often fail to live up to.

He loved outcasts, the diseased, the foreigner, the poor, and the hated.

He rebuked the corrupt and powerful, especially, the religious power brokers.

He was humble, but shockingly truthful.

He told stories that people related to. He was not a theologian and did not preach an expository sermon.

He occasionally confounded and challenged people to go deeper in their understanding.

He was a healer. Though I do not possess divine ability, I can still be a healer of hearts.

He gave people hope for now and for eternity.

I am hanging onto love.

It’s hard to do when people are unlovely.

It’s hard to remember when we get consumed with ourselves and forget about others.

It’s hard to figure out what loves means for an individual.

It’s hard to be nice, or even decent, at time, let alone loving.

But love really works to touch people deeply, like nothing else.

It’s our primary responsibility here on earth.

I am hanging onto truth.

I do believe in objective truth, but what I am referring to is belief and behavior that is so true, it works its way out in regular life. It is real, raw, and not academic, esoteric, or theoretical. It doesn’t require its own subculture. It works in life with all its celebrations and challenges, achievements and disappointments, and triumphs and tragedies. It’s integrated not separated.

I am hanging onto hope.

I believe we can live in peace in this life. I believe we can become more loving. I believe we can live gracefully, gratefully, and joyfully. I believe we can reset to living life this way, even when we get thrown a few curve balls.

I believe there is hope for this life and the next and the next, though we have only a scant few clues and promises about that.

I don’t have any ideas about how to “fix church” or make it more relevant. I often wish I did because after all those years of church, that slot is still not completely filled.

It seems like it gets messed up when we begin to organize it and institutionalize it.

This is a pretty strange statement of beliefs, but it is mine.

Glenn Hager is a former pastor, newspaper columnist, magazine contributor, blogger (glennhager.com), and author of two books. He also designs lighting (http://doo-dads.com/). Glenn and his wife, Patty live in northeastern Illinois.

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What Is Main Message about Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , on November 17, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

Hell is certainly a message Christians get wrong. I am convinced a literal Hell is a biblical myth.  See here.  We get wrong that God thinks women can’t serve in the same religious or marriage roles that men can. Another myth. See here. Also, we get wrong that God condemns gays according to the Bible. Another myth. See here. But the biggest myth may be that God’s main message according to the Bible is that salvation is about going to Heaven or Hell rather than how to live life here on earth. People reject God based on claims about hell, women, or gays. But it is so important to know that God cares about you here and now and not about just the afterlife.

The main message isn’t about a literal Hell somewhere other than on earth

Gehenna, the Greek word translated as Hell in the New Testament, was the name of a real valley near Jerusalem with a history of terrible, ending slaughter.  Gehenna is best translated Gehenna just as Mount Everest is best translated Mount Everest. There is no word in Hebrew or Greek for “hell.” Jesus used Gehenna to illustrate that spiritual death is as tragic as physical death. God creating a literal Hell where people are tortured for billions of years for beliefs held a short time here on earth isn’t possible biblically or morally.   See here.  See here. 

The main message isn’t about God saving us to enter Heaven away from Earth 

Jesus taught as if God’s Kingdom was near, not coming in distant future. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (Mk 9:1) The Good News throughout the Gospels refers to a Kingdom here on earth now. The kingdom of God “has come upon you” (Mt 12:28) and “is in your midst.” (Lk 17:21) The word “heaven” appears the most in the Gospel of Matthew. The Kingdom of Heaven isn’t a place to go after life on earth. Jesus sought to bring heavenly love to earth – “on earth as in heaven.”

What about eternal life?

Jesus was asked by a religious leader how to have eternal life. (Lk.10:25-37). Jesus elsewhere defined eternal life as beginning in the here and now (Jn 17:3), not what awaited in the afterlife. I doubt the leader had in mind how to get into Heaven away from this Earth. Jesus simply said to love God and your neighbor. “Eternal” appears to be on the quality not quantity in life. Jesus spoke of a life worth living being a loving life empowered by God. Jesus’ salvation was about living a meaningful life here on earth with God’s help. The Bible/Jesus/God’s message isn’t dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death, but start loving now – a path toward great relationships.

What did the earliest Gospel says how Jesus spoke to others? 

I read through the Gospel of Mark to see what Jesus’ main message was to others. Mark’s Gospel is considered the earliest written from which Matthew and Luke cited. In all the Gospels Jesus never advises to preach to the masses to save them from Hell in the afterlife. Jesus sought to help others avoid hell here on earth. Sin is destructive. It has natural consequences.

  • When Jesus met his disciples, he only said “follow me.” (Mark 1: 16:17, 2:14) A set of beliefs wasn’t required. The main message to the disciples was living a life worth living.
  • People were bringing children to Jesus and he said “anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15) The kingdom of God was not a future home but a current reality. Jesus has just said “some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (Mark 9:1)
  • A rich person asked how to have eternal life. Jesus said sell everything and follow me. (Mark 10: 17-31) Surely Jesus’ point was to love people more than possessions. What does following Jesus mean? When asked what was the greatest commandments, Jesus only said to love God and your neighbors (Mark 12:30-31). What! Not drop to your knees and say a prayer!
  • The above interactions are like when Jesus dealt with the women caught in adultery. (Jn. 7:53-8:11) Jesus only encouraged the woman to go and sin no more. Where was his evangelical spiel. He might never see her again! Apparently, Jesus came to encourage living a loving life toward others and yourself.

Didn’t Paul though preach repent to avoid punishment? 

The Apostle Paul did say “believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Rm 10:9) Paul recognized Jesus’ death and resurrection, but Jesus’ sacrifice was to draw attention to the Good News already proclaimed by Paul – God’s desire to empower unselfish living. Paul preached about the Kingdom of God being here (Acts). Paul did say “the wages of sin is death.” (Rm. 6:23) But Paul is speaking of spiritual death because Paul is still alive though sin has put him to death (Rm. 7:11). Paul mentions Heaven twice in Romans, yet says nothing about Jesus dying so we can go to Heaven (Rm. 1:18, 10:6). The Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT never refers to Hell. No prophet in the OT warned of Hell as a consequence for behaviors here on earth.

What about life after death?

We don’t know exactly what happens after life here on earth. We are free to speculate what a loving God might do. Go ahead and live like Hell while here on earth! Careful the regrets you, your family, and friends will feel at the end of your life. Careful that our character developed here on earth may make the change process longer and more painful in the life to come. It is reasonable to believe a loving God can choose to take forever in this life and the life to come to save everyone from themselves. It is possible to interpret the Bible as claiming all eventually go to be with God after death.  See here.

God only seeks to inspire you to avoid a life full of regrets

We are told the message of the Bible is Jesus coming to give you salvation to save you from Hell so you could enter Heaven. I believe Jesus spoke of loving God not to get into heaven but to receive help in loving others as you love yourself now. You may be different than me, but I get help from God in pursuing a life not full of regrets. Try it! It’s on God to come through for you if you choose to follow. Jesus when leaving this earth spoke of having God’s spirit within us.  If you refuse to love, you may end up a lonely, regretful soul.

What Is Main Message About Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Why I Am Done with Religion

Posted in christian living, deconstruction, institutional church, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , on November 13, 2024|

by Glenn Hager

As my relationship with the church and my religion came into question, my world unraveled, because church was my world. I was pastor for over twenty years and loved all things church. I constantly read books about how to do church better. My friends were all church members and pastors, and my life was consumed by church services and church meetings and my pastoral calling was my north star in life.

What happened? Through the years, one-by-one cracks began to form in the relationship between me and the church until finally we went our separate ways. Those cracks were quiet questions that I did not allow myself to pursue.

As I pastored a fledgling church in a small town already saturated with churches of the same denomination, I wondered, “why so many churches?” A crack began to form.

I could have had a great career at another church, if I just pandered to folks with some old-fashioned preaching and music, and back-slapping. I couldn’t do it. It seemed they wanted all the ministry directed toward themselves with little concern for those outside the fold. The crack was getting more defined.

I felt I needed a more serious congregation with more involved leadership. That desire took us to a church in a large suburb of Chicago which had become an Anglo Island in a Hispanic community. It was a congregation populated by seminary students, old fundamentalists, and younger evangelicals. With its inner division and transitioned neighborhood, it was a nightmare to lead.

Finally, after several painful years and several existing members leaving, it became an authentic ministry with great community and an updated worship style. Yet, as a Hispanic congregation shared our building and thrived, it was obvious we were in the wrong location.

During our move to temporary quarters in a more suburban and English-speaking setting, a key couple took it on themselves to share their discontent with others. It resulted in our small group becoming even smaller. After some time of meeting in our home, we disbanded. The betrayal pried open the crack even further. For the first time in my adult life, I was not a pastor, and I was undone.

In the years after, we hosted a house church of young adults in our living room, attended another house church, helped-out a couple churches with their welcoming ministry and community-wide outreach. Eventually, it seemed unlikely that I would ever find a church that aligned with my vision. That vision included a heart for the outsider and a willingness to try new avenues of acceptance and community.

The crack had become a gaping canyon.

These cracks or questions were more like a feeling that I wouldn’t allow myself to feel… until I had to. When I did, I was shocked at how wide the crack had become and I was lost, homeless, and frustrated that I had been so unsuccessful as a church leader.

I got to the point where I wanted nothing to do with the church games, but deeply longed for something that is real. When I thought about Jesus, the more I saw there was also a gaping crack between him and what the church had become.

That irony is overwhelming.

Glenn Hager is a former pastor, newspaper columnist, magazine contributor, blogger (glennhager.com), and author of two books. He also designs lighting (http://doo-dads.com/). Glenn and his wife, Patty live in northeastern Illinois.

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