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What Is Main Message about Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , on November 17, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

Hell is certainly a message Christians get wrong. I am convinced a literal Hell is a biblical myth.  See here.  We get wrong that God thinks women can’t serve in the same religious or marriage roles that men can. Another myth. See here. Also, we get wrong that God condemns gays according to the Bible. Another myth. See here. But the biggest myth may be that God’s main message according to the Bible is that salvation is about going to Heaven or Hell rather than how to live life here on earth. People reject God based on claims about hell, women, or gays. But it is so important to know that God cares about you here and now and not about just the afterlife.

The main message isn’t about a literal Hell somewhere other than on earth

Gehenna, the Greek word translated as Hell in the New Testament, was the name of a real valley near Jerusalem with a history of terrible, ending slaughter.  Gehenna is best translated Gehenna just as Mount Everest is best translated Mount Everest. There is no word in Hebrew or Greek for “hell.” Jesus used Gehenna to illustrate that spiritual death is as tragic as physical death. God creating a literal Hell where people are tortured for billions of years for beliefs held a short time here on earth isn’t possible biblically or morally.   See here.  See here. 

The main message isn’t about God saving us to enter Heaven away from Earth 

Jesus taught as if God’s Kingdom was near, not coming in distant future. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (Mk 9:1) The Good News throughout the Gospels refers to a Kingdom here on earth now. The kingdom of God “has come upon you” (Mt 12:28) and “is in your midst.” (Lk 17:21) The word “heaven” appears the most in the Gospel of Matthew. The Kingdom of Heaven isn’t a place to go after life on earth. Jesus sought to bring heavenly love to earth – “on earth as in heaven.”

What about eternal life?

Jesus was asked by a religious leader how to have eternal life. (Lk.10:25-37). Jesus elsewhere defined eternal life as beginning in the here and now (Jn 17:3), not what awaited in the afterlife. I doubt the leader had in mind how to get into Heaven away from this Earth. Jesus simply said to love God and your neighbor. “Eternal” appears to be on the quality not quantity in life. Jesus spoke of a life worth living being a loving life empowered by God. Jesus’ salvation was about living a meaningful life here on earth with God’s help. The Bible/Jesus/God’s message isn’t dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death, but start loving now – a path toward great relationships.

What did the earliest Gospel says how Jesus spoke to others? 

I read through the Gospel of Mark to see what Jesus’ main message was to others. Mark’s Gospel is considered the earliest written from which Matthew and Luke cited. In all the Gospels Jesus never advises to preach to the masses to save them from Hell in the afterlife. Jesus sought to help others avoid hell here on earth. Sin is destructive. It has natural consequences.

  • When Jesus met his disciples, he only said “follow me.” (Mark 1: 16:17, 2:14) A set of beliefs wasn’t required. The main message to the disciples was living a life worth living.
  • People were bringing children to Jesus and he said “anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15) The kingdom of God was not a future home but a current reality. Jesus has just said “some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (Mark 9:1)
  • A rich person asked how to have eternal life. Jesus said sell everything and follow me. (Mark 10: 17-31) Surely Jesus’ point was to love people more than possessions. What does following Jesus mean? When asked what was the greatest commandments, Jesus only said to love God and your neighbors (Mark 12:30-31). What! Not drop to your knees and say a prayer!
  • The above interactions are like when Jesus dealt with the women caught in adultery. (Jn. 7:53-8:11) Jesus only encouraged the woman to go and sin no more. Where was his evangelical spiel. He might never see her again! Apparently, Jesus came to encourage living a loving life toward others and yourself.

Didn’t Paul though preach repent to avoid punishment? 

The Apostle Paul did say “believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Rm 10:9) Paul recognized Jesus’ death and resurrection, but Jesus’ sacrifice was to draw attention to the Good News already proclaimed by Paul – God’s desire to empower unselfish living. Paul preached about the Kingdom of God being here (Acts). Paul did say “the wages of sin is death.” (Rm. 6:23) But Paul is speaking of spiritual death because Paul is still alive though sin has put him to death (Rm. 7:11). Paul mentions Heaven twice in Romans, yet says nothing about Jesus dying so we can go to Heaven (Rm. 1:18, 10:6). The Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT never refers to Hell. No prophet in the OT warned of Hell as a consequence for behaviors here on earth.

What about life after death?

We don’t know exactly what happens after life here on earth. We are free to speculate what a loving God might do. Go ahead and live like Hell while here on earth! Careful the regrets you, your family, and friends will feel at the end of your life. Careful that our character developed here on earth may make the change process longer and more painful in the life to come. It is reasonable to believe a loving God can choose to take forever in this life and the life to come to save everyone from themselves. It is possible to interpret the Bible as claiming all eventually go to be with God after death.  See here.

God only seeks to inspire you to avoid a life full of regrets

We are told the message of the Bible is Jesus coming to give you salvation to save you from Hell so you could enter Heaven. I believe Jesus spoke of loving God not to get into heaven but to receive help in loving others as you love yourself now. You may be different than me, but I get help from God in pursuing a life not full of regrets. Try it! It’s on God to come through for you if you choose to follow. Jesus when leaving this earth spoke of having God’s spirit within us.  If you refuse to love, you may end up a lonely, regretful soul.

What Is Main Message About Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Why I Am Done with Religion

Posted in christian living, deconstruction, institutional church, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , on November 13, 2024|

by Glenn Hager

As my relationship with the church and my religion came into question, my world unraveled, because church was my world. I was pastor for over twenty years and loved all things church. I constantly read books about how to do church better. My friends were all church members and pastors, and my life was consumed by church services and church meetings and my pastoral calling was my north star in life.

What happened? Through the years, one-by-one cracks began to form in the relationship between me and the church until finally we went our separate ways. Those cracks were quiet questions that I did not allow myself to pursue.

As I pastored a fledgling church in a small town already saturated with churches of the same denomination, I wondered, “why so many churches?” A crack began to form.

I could have had a great career at another church, if I just pandered to folks with some old-fashioned preaching and music, and back-slapping. I couldn’t do it. It seemed they wanted all the ministry directed toward themselves with little concern for those outside the fold. The crack was getting more defined.

I felt I needed a more serious congregation with more involved leadership. That desire took us to a church in a large suburb of Chicago which had become an Anglo Island in a Hispanic community. It was a congregation populated by seminary students, old fundamentalists, and younger evangelicals. With its inner division and transitioned neighborhood, it was a nightmare to lead.

Finally, after several painful years and several existing members leaving, it became an authentic ministry with great community and an updated worship style. Yet, as a Hispanic congregation shared our building and thrived, it was obvious we were in the wrong location.

During our move to temporary quarters in a more suburban and English-speaking setting, a key couple took it on themselves to share their discontent with others. It resulted in our small group becoming even smaller. After some time of meeting in our home, we disbanded. The betrayal pried open the crack even further. For the first time in my adult life, I was not a pastor, and I was undone.

In the years after, we hosted a house church of young adults in our living room, attended another house church, helped-out a couple churches with their welcoming ministry and community-wide outreach. Eventually, it seemed unlikely that I would ever find a church that aligned with my vision. That vision included a heart for the outsider and a willingness to try new avenues of acceptance and community.

The crack had become a gaping canyon.

These cracks or questions were more like a feeling that I wouldn’t allow myself to feel… until I had to. When I did, I was shocked at how wide the crack had become and I was lost, homeless, and frustrated that I had been so unsuccessful as a church leader.

I got to the point where I wanted nothing to do with the church games, but deeply longed for something that is real. When I thought about Jesus, the more I saw there was also a gaping crack between him and what the church had become.

That irony is overwhelming.

Glenn Hager is a former pastor, newspaper columnist, magazine contributor, blogger (glennhager.com), and author of two books. He also designs lighting (http://doo-dads.com/). Glenn and his wife, Patty live in northeastern Illinois.

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I Am Done With…

Posted in deconstruction, institutional church, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , on November 7, 2024|

by Glenn Hager

This is one of the easiest and most cathartic posts I have ever written. It’s easy because I can clearly catalog the characteristics of evangelical religion that are distasteful to me.

Since I write this at the peak fervor of our presidential campaign, Evangelical entanglement with politics immediately comes to mind.

There seems to be a confusion about kingdoms. Christ’s kingdom and all the kingdoms of this world are vastly different. One is a kingdom of love and the others are kingdoms of power.

Earthly kingdoms are about control, Christ’s kingdom is about influence, the way we live our lives and love people. Earthly kingdoms are about enforcing laws, Christ’s is about love and changing hearts. Earthly kingdoms are about war, Christ’s is about peace with God and one another. Earthly kingdoms are about mandating rules, Christ’s is about choosing his ways from the heart.

Christian Nationalism is an attempt to use earthly kingdoms to force on people what some determine to be Christian values. It’s like trying to mix oil and water. They are in opposition to one another. You cannot legislate or mandate a changed heart. It opens the door for politicians to adopt a few socially conservative policies, do lip service to religion, and use a couple of evangelical buzz words to get elected.

During the January 6th riots, I was as shocked as any American to witness the violent assault of the very heart of our government after being ginned-up by a man whose ego and was so huge but so fragile that he would assault our very democracy to try to be “a winner” (really a looser).

In the violent chaos flags were waving, the American Flag, the Don’t Tread on Me Flag (Gadsden Flag), the Confederate Flag, the Trump Flag, and the Christian Flag. These flags represent the elements of Christian Nationalism. They are a toxic cocktail that confuses patriotism, individualism, racism, cultism, and religion. It looks nothing like Jesus and everything like an authoritarian political movement that is destroying the witness of the church.

Folks who are not in the club, don’t get it. They wonder, “Why are Christians so hateful, so unloving, so bent on forcing their views on others.” Even they know that is not at all like Christ. This movement exposes a hypocrisy of a superficial faith defined by a few slogans, that hates its enemies, and ignores the obvious faults of its champion (not Christ).

Christianity has become an exclusive club for the already convinced. So, churches hire a charismatic pastor and staff, build an impressive building, and offer a wide array of programs to keep the sheep happy and proud of what they have. They think the bigger all of this gets, the more successful the church must be. They rely on these assets, the buildings and staff.  With all the salaries and the mortgage, it takes a lot of money to keep the sheep happy.

Every church has a little different idea about how to do church, hence the countless varieties, sometimes at the same intersection, like fast food outlets.

Pastors and leaders have unrealistic expectations placed on them. A few are egomaniacs. Most are simply trying to fulfill their calling and keep the flock happy. Almost none can be honest about their feelings and struggles with anyone in the congregation because they are expected to be above mortal temptations (unlike the congregants). They are not, as proven by the numerous scandals involving members of the clergy.

Too many churches and associations of churches have become self-centered, politically affiliated rest homes for the long-since convinced with little concern for those who need to see the Gospel in action.

I join the millions who are done with that.

But it doesn’t mean we are done with Jesus.

Glenn Hager is a former pastor, newspaper columnist, magazine contributor, blogger (glennhager.com), and author of two books. He also designs lighting (http://doo-dads.com/). Glenn and his wife, Patty live in northeastern Illinois.

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Is The Bible Really The Word Of God?

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, Word of God, tagged , , , , , , on October 27, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

We often hear claims that the Bible is “THE WORD OF GOD.” A perfect, loving God can’t lie, so one may assume that all the Bible claims about God is true. But the Bible can’t be the definitive word about God since subject to interpretation (different scholarly views of the same passages). Besides, we can’t prove God controlled if the writers always accurately portrayed God.

The truth is we can’t prove God inspired the Bible 

The biggest proof often given to suggest God inspired perfect thoughts written down is because the Bible claims that to be so (i.e. 2 Tim 2:16). But this passage has several different interpretations. Anyway, a Book isn’t proven to be inspired because it claims to be inspired. Those who claim God’s inspired the Bible would not accept the Koran to be divinely inspired because it makes such claims. It seems fair to ask if divine inspiration is so important and God is that controlling, why didn’t God preserve original manuscripts to remove doubts of editorial errors?

Even if God controlled everything written in the Bible . . . 

Even if we could prove the writers of the Bible always understood God perfectly, we can’t claim our interpretations are perfect. The truth is biblical scholars who have a deep respect for Scriptures don’t agree what God believes about many moral values. See here.  See here.  See here. Gays are often condemned, women’s leadership roles are limited despite their gifts, and it is suggested a fiery torturous afterlife awaits infidels – all in God’s name. Extremists often will advocate killing infidels in this life because they believe their Holy Book is inspired by God and of course their interpretation is the right one.

So, how do we know what God is like? 

Over half the people born into this world didn’t have a Bible. Were they all clueless what a loving God would be like? If we can question if writers always understood God perfectly, we can naturally wonder if God’s actions would ever violate our moral intuitions of a loving God. See here.  If a loving Creator exists, which is the only God worth believing it, it is only intuitive that a Creator loves the ways their creations ought to love one another. We all seem to know the question we ought to ask ourselves – am I loving others perfectly? Self-evident morals aren’t hidden in any Holy Book. We all have an inborn sense of good and evil. Our moral intuitions, unless you are a terrorist, aren’t the enemy! 

Why bother to read the Bible if can’t prove God approved all written? 

It doesn’t matter if you believe the Bible is inspired. You still must interpret the Bible and you may be right or possibly wrong. Uncertainty is a fact of life unless my son or son-in laws mistreat women! The Bible is God’s story beginning with Israel and culminating with the life of Jesus that we don’t possess in other documents. God may have inspired/encouraged the writers to write but didn’t necessarily approve of everything written about God. Enjoy what God is trying to reveal to you about your Creator and how to treat others. Insights contrary to how you know you ought to love your neighbor may be amiss. A Book must not replace our relationship with God and common moral sense. Questioning the Bible may lead to knowing God better!

Is The Bible Really The Word Of God?

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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My Christian Leadership Story

Posted in Bible, christian living, institutional church, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , on October 2, 2024|

by Michael Donahoe

I grew up in the traditional, organized church. I was always taught that the pastor was head of the church, and he had all the answers and so much more knowledge than anyone else in the church. I mention the pastor as a ‘he’ because when I was young and growing up in the church it was unheard of to have a woman pastor.

I remember scheduling meetings with the pastor so I could ask him questions and find out all the answers to Christian living. It almost floored me one time when I asked the pastor a question and he actually said he did not know the answer.

Looking back, I can see that I certainly looked to the pastor rather than looking to the Spirit. I was putting my hope in a man that I thought could tell me everything about God, yet I was not seeking to know God himself.

Next in line were the board of elders. Each of them were so much more holy than I or anyone else in the church or else they would not be in that position of authority. At least that is what I thought at the time. I have a friend who thinks prayers have more authority when she goes to the board of elders and has them pray.

Questioning Christian Leadership

The longer I was in the church, the more I began to wonder about things. Of course I did not dare ask the questions I had since people would be questioning my faith, or think I was questioning the pastor.

When I read that Christ was the head of His church, I wondered why the pastor seemed to get credit for that position.

I read that we should call no one father (or pastor) other than God, and I again wondered why people in position of leadership and authority in the church wanted to be called pastor or apostle or elder.

We are told that the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher, and we do not need anyone other than him. Yet, we look to the pastor, or an elder, or some big name evangelist to find all the answers to our questions.

I began getting dissatisfied with having these questions and not letting them surface enough to come out and be asked. I began to realize I had more and more questions, and fewer and fewer answers.

I finally started coming across books and websites of people who seemed to be in the same boat. They were wondering and questioning and being open with their questions. Some of them seemed to actually come up with some answers that made sense to me.

The more I thought, questioned, and read, the more I began to realize that our traditional church system is really not what God intended for the church. I also realized that questioning is not a lack of faith. God can handle our questioning; in fact, most of the time Jesus taught more with questions than answers. He wanted people to question and reason over things.

True Christian Leadership

The true Church that Jesus is building is not a brick and mortar place. The head of the Church that Jesus is building is not a pastor, pope, elder, or apostle. In fact, the head is not a man or woman at all.

Leadership in the Church of Jesus is not what we have always thought of either. When we realize Christ is the head and leader of his Church, we begin to realize that man has no business demanding or expecting people to follow them and put them in the place of Christ.

True Christian leadership is not an office of authority. It is not a place for only a few who are specially trained at a man-made Bible school. True Christian leadership is for all of us who are members of the Church of Christ. We are all kings and priests; we are all holy and righteous because of Christ. To be clear, when I say Church of Christ, I’m not talking about any denomination or physical building. The true Church is a community of people who are following Christ, and He is our head. All the rest of us, men and women alike, are equally functioning body parts of his Church.

My Christian leadership story

No person has a place of authority over another. That is the world’s way of doing things. That is the business way of doing things. Needless to say, there are a lot of churches and religious organizations that are acting like big business with their presidents and CEO’s, but that is not how it should be.

Christian Leadership as God intended is the Spirit working through the different body parts, leading by example. They are encouragers and teachers from a place of love and experience, not a place of authority and power. Each of us are leaders at one time or another in this sense of leading by example, experience, and love. We come in contact with those who need encouragement or a little guidance, not from someone who thinks they know it all, but from someone who has been there. A person who, out of love, wants to see the best for everyone.

True Christian leaders will not demand your loyalty. They will not want your allegiance to them. They will not rule over you with authority and expect you to follow them no matter what. True leaders will want to lead you to the head and true leader of the Church, Jesus. It is time we stop looking to men and women as our guides and leaders, and look to Jesus. We need to listen for the leading, guidance, and teaching of the Holy Spirit who is actually God within us, rather than seeking the knowledge and wisdom of mere men.

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Michael Donahoe was added as a writer as his views fit perfectly with those of Done with Religion. He also writes on Substack at https://personalmeanderings.substack.com/

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Why Might Religious Leaders Hold To Questionable Beliefs?

Posted in Acceptance, Bible, christian living, Love of God, tagged , , , , , , , , on August 11, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

Are you willing to admit you may be wrong in your view of God. We can all agree God hates sexual abuse. I have no doubt that God doesn’t condemn gays, even according to the Bible, but I am open to discussion if you are. Disputable beliefs have different consequences for the layperson as opposed to leaders. Livelihoods can be at stake for religious leaders if they don’t preach certain beliefs according to the expectation of denominations or people in the pews. 

One’s view of the Bible is a problem

It is assumed God approved everything written about God in the Bible. The problem is God isn’t always portrayed as loving. See here.  Even if the writers understood God perfectly, which we can’t prove, we can’t claim our interpretations are perfect. Biblical scholars who have a deep respect for Scriptures don’t interpret/agree what the Bible says about God’s views about gays, women, hell, and other moral issues. A Creator surely loves the ways their creations ought to love one another. Perfect Godly and human love must be the same. A supposed inspired Book must not replace our discussion of common moral sense given to us by our Creator.

People loving certainty is a problem

Laypeople often find comfort psychologically in certainty rather than uncertainty. One may believe the seemingly certain narrative because unknowing can create anxiety. Also, disagreeing with friends or those in leadership about God’s character can lead to conflict and loneliness due to isolation. It doesn’t matter if those who proclaim certainty have good intentions or believe their ideas are right about God. Openness is critical in case we are wrong.

Not claiming certainty can have great consequences for those in leadership positions. It is not easy changing your mind in front of people you have advised to believe something different. Laypeople often crave certainty, so less than dogmatism can lead to anxiety for the flock. Threats of job security for leadership is real if disagreeing with the popular but uncertain narrative. In politics different opinions might not lead to reelection. Pastors risk being kicked out of the pulpit.

So, are we clueless what God is like? 

A Book cannot be the sole determinate of what God is like since the same passages are subject to different interpretations. Our inborn sense of good and evil, not an ancient Book, tells us sexual abuse or murder is immoral. A Creator surely loves the way creatures intuitively think they ought to love. We all seem to know the question we ought to ask ourselves – am I loving others perfectly? There will be less disagreements when we don’t insist on our interpretation of a Book. People deep down know how to handle disagreements. Until we all ask ourselves “am I acting toward others like I want to be treated,” we are destined to fail and come to a solution. 

Christian leaders must recognize their hypocrisy!

I am sure I don’t always know my own hypocrisy, but I recognize hypocrisy when I see it! Many conservative Christians leaders accuse the current government Administration and health officials of misleading by maintaining their interpretation is scientific truth. It’s hard to understand the scientific truth keeping bars open but not churches during the pandemic. It used to be not science if there wasn’t debate. Well, it isn’t biblical truth because you say it is according to your interpretation. It is true science is fluent. It is also true we can’t prove God exist much less that our view of what God is like is correct. ‘Uncertainty” falls both ways – religion and science. 

Freedom of expression because of uncertainty is critical to lead forward 

Freedom of ideas are what separate democratic societies from dictatorships. Freedom is often quashed because individuals claim certainty in their beliefs. Christians leaders condemn gays in God’s name because the Bible says so, and demands others believe as they do. They don’t consider they may be wrong. See here.  Climate experts don’t agree with the narrative concerning climate change. Claiming certainty rather than defending one’s position is not how a democracy works. One must have the freedom to make their own decisions when there is uncertainty. Religion and science are playing God (Superior) in the lives of others by claiming they know the truth and we are too stupid to decide for ourselves!

What is a religious leader to do?

When universal agreement doesn’t exist, such as the evil of sexual abuse, it must become obvious that one must be allowed to form their own opinions since uncertainty exists. We must stop being so damn certain of our understanding of God according to the Bible, especially when our interpretations are contrary to our moral intuitions. The central message about God in the Bible seems to be to strive to love others like you want to be loved. I will debate anyone who thinks a loving God, by Jesus’ example, encourages treating others like shit. We can stop labeling those who disagree with our biblical interpretations as heretics. We can stop calling those who disagree with our views of science as conspiracists. Thousands of denominations exist because of the focus on uncertain beliefs. I am convinced the only belief God cares about is loving others as you best know how!

Why Might Religious Leaders Hold To Questionable Beliefs?

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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What Is The Greatest Destroyer Of A Nation?

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, tagged , , , , , , , , , , on June 16, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

Countries ruled by Dictators where there is no personal choice have failed miserably. Human nature cries out for freedom and to not be led like sheep. Democratic nations or those who have some assemblance of freedom are fortunate if able to fight for their rights. Politics, religion, and science/health practices have something in common that is dividing our country and families. We easily recognize this destroyer in our family/personal relationships but not in public arenas.

Certainty leads to close-mindedness and refusal to discuss differences 

If you find one rational person that has a difference of opinion from your own, you cannot be certain of your opinion. I don’t care if it concerns the safety of vaccines, climate solutions, or if God condemns gays. There are rational or rights to opinions on both sides. Couples who claim certainty are headed toward divorce or a sucky relationship. God-followers and religious leaders seem hell-bent in telling people what they must believe about God according to their understanding and interpretation of the Bible. Politicians who refuse debate of their policies are no different. You can spot destructiveness or evil a mile away – those who censor other opinions. Leaders play God (Superior) in the lives of others by claiming to know the truth and we can’t decide for ourselves.

Why can’t we be more openminded? 

Certainty rather than uncertainty is more comforting psychologically. One may believe what seems to be the popular narrative because unknowing can create confusion or anxiety. Anxiety is avoided by not discussing one’s beliefs with others who believe differently. For one to question a main belief they have been taught in church all their life, such as if Hell is real, can cause one to question other beliefs they have been taught. Questioning if the Covid shots are safe in the long-run, if we have gotten the shots, can raise anxiety about our health. What if we pushed others to get the shots and we end up wrong? Trusting authority always can sometimes be misguided.

The most benign explanation for denying freedom of choice is one who believes they are doing the best for all concerned. This denies uncertainty. The more evil explanation for censoring the opinions of others is one’s desire for control which leads to power over others, intentional or not. Control and power often lead to security (jobs). Control and power flourish when others are not allowed to discuss alternative opinions in the public arena. It isn’t science or theology if there isn’t debate. That is why we often change our mind when able to participate in discussions. One way to judge one’s motive is to question why they fear debating others if they are so sure they are right.

How can we know what is true 

Certainty is an illusion unless talking about universal moral sins such as rape or incest. Adultery isn’t only wrong in the eyes of the betrayer. Most decisions are not black and white and require open debate by those in authority. One must have the freedom to decide what is the best decision for themselves, or the powerful rule the powerless. Those fortunate enough to live in a democratic society must accept the vote of the majority when comes to law setting. You can still defend your position in hopes of a future vote. May the best, most common-sense position win.

I am convinced all know how a loving human should act, whether they never had a Bible (majority born in this world) or don’t believe in God. Christians leaders often claim we must be guided by biblical principles. They assume their interpretation is correct. It is common to hear one argue “The Bible says” without adding “according to my understanding.” The truth is contrary biblical interpretations exist for many moral issues. Hell, we can’t be sure if there is a literal Hell according to the Bible.  See here.

What is God so hidden?

Religious people may ask why God doesn’t make truth more obvious. God may not speak to us demonstratively out of love. Just because earthly parents sometime know and advise what is best for their older child, such advice doesn’t always work out. In fact, overzealousness can lead to feeling controlled, thus rejecting what is best for one’s own good. God’s awing or overwhelming presence may only lead to fearful obligations to obey. The road traveled of learning, reflecting, and not being pressured may best lead to lasting convictions and more meaningful relationships. Maybe God speaks to us in non-dramatic ways (influence) out of love!

The path forward to save a Nation

  • We must first stop claiming our views are morally superior to those we disagree with unless speaking of universal accepted moral truths
  • We must handle differences with physical and emotional civility
  • We must begin conversations by looking for areas we agree
  • We must discuss differences by defending our reasoning, respecting the opinions of others, and commit to growing in understanding
  • We must be openminded. Consider why you are afraid to defend your belief if you supposedly know the “truth”
  • We must protect one’s freedom to choose when the possibility exists we could be wrong
  • We must stop censoring or labeling others as heretics or conspiracists that we disagree with
  • We must stop supporting politicians who advocate censorship or label those who disagree with them as mis-informers. Why believe their view if they can’t defend their views for the supposed good of the world?
  • We must use language that conveys respecting one’s right to believe in a Creator or not

What Is The Greatest Destroyer Of A Nation?

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Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Even in Christ, We Walk Different Paths

Posted in Acceptance of Others, christian living, Jesus follower, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , , , , , , , on May 28, 2024|

by Jim Gordon

After being in the organized church for well over fifty years and seeing all the different denominations, beliefs and interpretations, one thing makes me sad. That one thing is to see so many followers of Jesus fight and argue over the different paths we take in our walk with God.

Now that is not saying that all roads lead to God, but while trusting in God and following the example of Jesus, we are going to take many different paths during our life here on earth. We are going to be different from other followers of Jesus, but we are following the same example.

Those of us outside the institutional church should not divide and separate ourselves into us versus them groups. In the same manner, those who are part of the modern-day church should not look down on and separate from those outside the institution. We need to accept that we both love God and are following the example of Jesus along the path that is for us.

I think this is what working out our salvation means. Not that we have to work to earn our salvation, but we continually learn as we follow the example of Jesus in our salvation. We, as Christ followers, will take different paths in our walk with God. We should not expect everyone to walk the same path.

I think this also relates to religion. Jesus was not a Christian and Christianity is not the only religion that leads to God. Many people follow different religions and quite often that is based on where they were born. As an example, most people born in the middle east follow Judaism or Islam. People born in the far east follow Confucianism or Taoism. People of the Indian (India) descent follow Hinduism or Buddhism. Can God draw people from each of these religions? Of course! Religion is not the answer. We were all created in the image of God and God loves the world.

We are to be accepting, loving and kind to all we have contact with each day. It seems we are more concerned about acting and believing the exact same things and following what we think is right. If we do not live that way, we want to fight, argue and separate ourselves rather than accept that God works in each of us in different ways. God made each of us differently, and God leads us along different paths as we walk toward a common goal.

Rather than expect everyone to be just like us, let us start loving one another the way Jesus loved people while he walked the earth. We should not let different religions, interpretations and ways of walking with God be a stumbling block to a loving fellowship with one another.

Besides, we are not going to show anyone how to follow the example of Jesus when all they see is arguing, disagreements and separation among those following Jesus. We will not be good examples of the love of God by insisting people conform to our way of thinking and following our rules and interpretations. The only way people will know we have something worth checking out is when they see those following the example of Jesus loving one another, caring for one another, building one another other up and being loving and kind to those who walk a different path.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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Should Christians Try To Convince Others About God?

Posted in Acceptance, christian living, Love of God, tagged , , , , , , , on May 19, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

I experience God being such an encourager in helping me to be more the person I desire to be deep down. If you are inclined to believe in God and you don’t feel God’s encouragement, it may be your views of God. See here. Christians often feel an obligation to share God with others because being taught God’s message was believe or go to Hell. Was that how Jesus interacted with others?

How did Jesus interact with others?

Many, including me, are convinced to understand Jesus is to understand God. Jesus encouraged his twelve disciples simply to follow Him. They didn’t all believe right away until Jesus proved himself. Jesus told the woman who had committed adultery: “go now, and leave your life of sin” (John 8). Where was Jesus’ evangelical spiel to avoid Hell? Jesus was asked by a religious expert how to have eternal life. He simply said to love God and your neighbor (Lk.10:25-37). I have a hunch Jesus thought loving God would lead to loving others. Jesus’ example and message wasn’t about escaping Hell but avoiding the destructive consequences of sin in this life. God can help in such a journey.   

How has God acted in convincing others? 

I suspect God is a respecter of one choosing their beliefs. Evil in the world clearly reveals God doesn’t force compliance, or there wouldn’t be so much horrific evil in this world. God obviously understands what we humans know – freedom is necessary for authenticity. Not even God can force true love. If you are thinking God eventually “gets you” in the afterlife by sending unbelievers to Hell, I doubt it.  See here.  

Christians must avoid the “agenda” reputation

Conversations with God-followers often feels like them trying to change your beliefs. We all hate when our partner doesn’t listen and just wants to give advice. One reason many avoid spiritual discussions is because they can smell a hidden agenda a mile away. It’s wrong to engage in friendships with others for the purpose of converting them to believe as you do, without advising upfront your agenda. Christians must avoid the appearance of having a hidden agenda. Conversations need to be natural and mutual.

How can Christians represent or share God?

God may not speak to us demonstratively out of love. Just because earthly parents sometime know and advise what is best for their older child, such advice doesn’t always work out. In fact, overzealousness can lead to a child feeling controlled, thus rejecting what is best for one’s own good. We must be considerate in our discussions about God with others. The road traveled of learning, reflecting, and not being pressured can lead to lasting convictions and more meaningful human and spiritual relationships. We don’t have to feel guilty because we aren’t convincing others about God and their love for them. Most Christians believe God has influential power. God believers can relax and simply share their personal experience if an opportunity naturally arises!

Should Christians Try To Convince Others About God?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Becoming a Religious Heretic – Part 2

Posted in Acceptance of Others, christian living, deconstruction, institutional church, Jesus follower, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , on April 24, 2024|

by Jim Gordon

As I wrote in my last article ( Part 1 ), over time I have become a religious heretic. I have questioned and thought about many of the things I was taught in church as I grew up. A few other topics I have changed my mind on are listed below.

Again, let me say, the following are my thoughts and opinions. I am not saying I am right or wrong, but is where I am at now. I have changed my views over the past several years, and I will most likely change my views over the next several years. We are all entitled to our opinions and we should accept each other with the opinions we have. We certainly will not all agree.

Creationism: I have changed my mind on this topic, not that I do not believe that God created all things, but I no longer believe God created all things in six literal days. God created, but when, how and how long it took I do not know. I do not think it is wrong or against the biblical teaching to say creation could have taken thousands, even billions of years. A thousand years to God are as one day to us, so obviously God’s timing is not like our timing.

I no longer say that Israel, or the United States as far as the goes, is God’s chosen people. I do not believe God has a chosen people, religion, country or race. God loves the world, and that includes everyone no matter where they live, what religion they follow, if any, what race, what gender, who they love or who they vote for.

I tend to find I chose social justice over religion these days. Many churches do help others in various areas, but I still found while in the church system, more people were focused on trying to get people to church or to accept their way of religious thinking and less about helping the poor, the unaccepted, the immigrants and others who often time were looked down upon and called lazy.

Knowing that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and we now live in an age of grace, I always find it hard to understand why so many religious institutions focus on the ten commandments and following the Old Covenant law. Why are they pushing what the Bible calls a way of death? For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. And, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Another change after leaving organized religion is my acceptance of people who the church normally looked down upon and were not accepted within the religious organization. The LGBTQ family, BIPOC, immigrants and other nationalities and religions. I now have friends and acquaintances from all these groups and totally accept that they were created in the image of God, are totally loved by God just as they are, and we can all learn from one another and treat one another with love and respect. There are no second-class citizens.

So, as you can see, I have changed my views on many things over the past few years. I think that is a good thing. I think we need to stay fresh and open to the leading of the Spirit to lead us in new ways as more truth is revealed to us. I am sure there will be more changes over the years as my wife and I walk with God outside the walls of religion. Obviously, these are all only my opinions and views. I may be right or I may be wrong. I do not force these views on anyone else. Each of us are free to choose for ourselves what we believe. What we are to do is love one another even in our differences, accept each other as we are and live life trying to help and encourage our fellow human beings along the way.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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