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by Mike Edwards

John Noe in Beyond The End Times: The Rest Of The Great Story Ever Told argues there is biblical evidence that the end times spoken in the Scriptures have been fulfilled. We may be looking forward to Jesus’ second coming (the words “second coming” never appear together in the Bible), when there is evidence that Jesus has already come again and fulfilled the prophecy regarding the “end times” in Scripture. Is God coming again (i.e. rapture/tribulation/Armageddon) to destroy this world as we know it and set up His reign? This viewpoint, if incorrect, can cause passivity, while we just wait on God to “fix” things by coming again. We must do all we can for the next generation. Suffering does end eventually for those who chose life with God after death.

History suggests Jesus’ predictions of coming in the “last days” have taken place. In the first century the great tribulation was fulfilled. The temple was destroyed and biblical Judaism ceased to exist. By AD 70 the city and the Temple were burned and destroyed. The covenant nation of Israel and biblical Judaism were forever destroyed. The destructive of Jerusalem was the end of the crucial redemptive-historical epoch. Early church historians affirm Jesus came in the fall of Jerusalem fulfilling Zechariah’s end-time prophecy. [Noe, 214] A literal day in August/September AD 70 was the third most important date in human history along with Christmas and Easter. The new heaven and earth were fulfilled in AD 70 when Jesus came.

The first biblical evidence that Jesus has already come is because the biblical writers and readers expected the “end times” spoken of to happen within their generation.

Peter writes to his readers in the first century that “the end of all things is at hand.” (1 Pe 4:7) Matthew records Jesus saying “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” (Mt 24:34) It has been suggested a generation could mean a thousand years, but the word in the Greek was never used in this way. We should take the word to mean what it typically means unless contextual evidence suggests otherwise. Jesus in Matthew 24 was advising the end times were soon. Jesus recommends his readers flee because predictions made are to take place in their generation. (v 16) When asked about the sign of His coming and the end of the age, Jesus said: “watch out that no one deceives you….you will hear of wars and rumors of war. (Mt 24:4-6)

Many other passages suggest the readers knew Jesus’ words would be fulfilled in their lifetime. I Corinthians 7 advises how to conduct relationships in times of danger as the “time is short.” (v 29) All references in the New Testament of the “last days” refer to the times of the writer, which was in the first century. (i.e. Heb 1:1-2; Acts 2:15-17; I Tim 4:1; 2 Tim 3:1; James 5:3; 2 Peter 3:3; I Peter 1:5,20; Jude 17-19; I Jn 2:18-20) The last days are referred to in the present tense. New Testament writer confirmed the coming of the Lord is at hand. (James 5:8; I Cor 7:29-31; I Peter 4:7, 17; I John 2:18) Finally, Hebrews 10:25, 36 says: “…and all the more as you see the Day approaching…For, in just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

Secondly, several biblical passages suggest the earth is not going to ever pass away or be destroyed like the flood.

(Gen 8:21-22 9:11) Scriptures imply the earth and the world were established to endure forever. (Ps 78:69; see also Ps. 93:1; 96:10; 119:90) Ephesians 3:9 says: the world is “without end.”  Not one passage says clearly the world is passing away. In fact, the Bible states our citizenship is in heaven, not a new heaven and earth. (Philip 3:20) We must be careful how we interpret language in the Bible. If everything were taken literally in the Bible, the Earth would have been destroyed many times over. Often, annihilation language is used to advise of upcoming judgments. Nahum 1:5 says: “the hills melt away.” The context is God’s judgment with Nineveh (1:1). Joel 2:30-31 says: “I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”  The fulfillment of this prophecy in Peter’s day (Acts 2:16-21). Numerous passages are not predicting the ending of the world or some mass destruction but rather either God’s judgment or some major event in history by God.

Jesus said to his audience in their time that the “heaven and earth will pass way.” (Mt 24:34-35) Obviously, the earth did not pass away physically as it still exists 2000 years later. Jesus was referring to a spiritual and not physical reality. Paul says: “this world in its present form is passing away” (I Cor 7:31) and that its “time is short.” (7:29) Paul was not referring to the end of the physical world. Paul was referring to the Old Testament Law system that was to be replaced in a new order and reality in Christ before their very eyes. Revelation 21:1 says: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.” 

Daniel when prophesying was told to close up and seal his words as the fulfillment was in the future. (Daniel 12:4, 9) John in Revelation was told to leave his book unsealed (Rev. 22:10), because his words were to be fulfilled soon. (Rev. 1:1, 3, 22:6-10) If John words were to be fulfilled centuries later as were Daniel’s, wouldn’t have John been told to “seal” his words? It is possible the new heaven and new earth that John spoke of was not physical but a spiritual reality. This spiritual reality happened when Jesus came again through the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and thus the law went with it. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. Isaiah’s new heaven and earth (65:17-18; 66:22) are Messianic and totally covenantal. The “new heaven and earth” spoken of speaks of a present reality in the time of the writer of Revelation 21: 3-7 Jesus was coming again in their time.

But, don’t the Scriptures assume the coming of Jesus described during Jesus’ generation and during Paul’s audience time is visible? 

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Paul assured his audience they have not missed the “day of the Lord.” Why was Paul’s audience fearful they could miss the coming of Jesus if such a coming is supposedly a rapture-removing, visible, world-ending coming? The audience obviously thought Jesus’ coming was to be in their lifetime. Only a non-visible, spiritual coming of Jesus could possibly be missed. Clearly, the disciples did not think of Jesus’ coming being visible as they ask “what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age.” (Mt 24:3) What about Acts 1:9-11? One might insist since Jesus left the earth physically, that He must “come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (v.11) An equal argument can be made though about Jesus’ coming being invisible. “He was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.” (v.9)

Christ’s “coming on the clouds” is a common metaphor borrowed from Old Testament portrayals of God descending from heaven and coming in power and glory to execute judgment on a people or nation. In all the historic comings of God in judgment, He acted through human armies, or through nature, to bring destruction. “See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt…” (Isa 19:1) For the earthly fulfillment, see Isaiah 20:1-6. Also, “Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind.” (Jer 4:13) “Sing to God, sing praise to his name, extol him who rides on the clouds…” (Ps 68:4) Because of this background, Jesus’ disciples would have understood what He was talking about in his Olivet Discourse about coming back on the “clouds of heaven.” (Mt. 24:30) In all these real biblical comings of God in the Old Testament, God was never physically visible; He was unseen by human eyes! Cloud-coming is the language of divine imagery. Jesus employed the same figure of speech for his end-time prophecies. For Jesus and a 1st century Jew, coming “on the clouds” was not a claim to come visible to the human eye.  Jesus did not come in body, yet He was present in judgment in the events of the Roman-Jewish War and the final destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (Noe, 183-185) Before Jesus’ messianic work no one had ever gone into heaven except Jesus. Upon Jesus’ completed work the resurrection of the saints took place and some actually visited Jerusalem in bodily form. (Mt 27:51-53)

Doesn’t Scriptures say the gospel has to be preached to all nations before Jesus comes again? 

In the Olivet Discourse it says “and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Mt 24:14) It is likely the writer meant the civilized world at that time which was the Roman world. It seems if the writer meant the entire global world and every individual they would have used the Greek word “kosmos” as used in Mathew 24:21. In Acts 2:5 Paul at Pentecost says: “now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.”  Surely, Paul was making a global statement and not intending to mean every individual in every nation. Paul states in his time that the gospel has been proclaimed “to every creature under heaven.” (Col 1:23) The gospel has already been preached to all nations and was not something in the distance future that has to be done before Christ can come again.

Jesus has come! When Christians die, they go to heaven and are not in limbo. We often say “Jesus is with us.” But, how can we say this if He hasn’t returned? Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus will appear a second time not to bear our sin but to bring salvation. Our salvation is not still in limbo. Isn’t our salvation complete as predicted in I Peter 1:5 when Jesus came with the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70? “Who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.” The new earth and heavens have arrived. In A.D. 70 all the old things were fulfilled and transformed anew in Christ. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. His people are its temples. This heavenly city is the glorious dwelling place of those believers who overcome and keep God’s commandments on His earth. The Holy city’s symbolic description in Revelation 21 and 22 is given to encourage all saints of every generation. We can win this inheritance and enter and live daily in this joy of this community with God. Who wants to miss what we have now in favor of futuristic postponement theologies? Who would want a revival of the old Judaic system, when they have the hope and promise of something better that has replaced it? Our inheritance is more glorious, more powerful, and far more joyful. It’s an incomparable inheritance, and it is here on earth and available in Christ. It’s the ultimate reality, the ultimate community, and the ultimate joy for God’s people here on earth. Read about it anew in Revelation 21 and 22. Are you inside or outside the city? The new Jerusalem awaits! (Noe, 264-265). 

  • Noe suggests a visible coming of Jesus in not mentioned in any historical Christian doctrines until 1560 AD (First Scottish Confessions of Faith). Malachi 4:5-6 says the prophet Elijah will be sent, but clearly this fulfillment was not visible but through the ministry of John the Baptist. (Mt 11:14)

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the Done with Religion site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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by Mike Edwards

Understandings and mental views of God shape your belief in God and your relationship with God. God surely delights more in one seeking to know God than the ninety-nine, offended by one’s interpretation of the Bible, who already know their Creator (Lk. 15:3-7). Biblical interpretations must be plausible based on what a loving God should be like.

If you read my Post weekly, you will probably notice I have beat this subject to death. This post is longer than most my Posts, so please hang in there. I want to touch on many themes related to answering this question. I want to combine three last Posts into one here. I want to address who gets into heaven, contrary to claims made by Christians. Do agnostics, atheists, and non-Christians get into heaven? Polls suggest many believe there is an afterlife after death, or at least they hope so. Christians open suggest we can know all there is about the afterlife by reading the Bible. That is suspect because biblical writers were only speculating – God didn’t speak to them directly. Besides, we have to interpret their views since there isn’t universal agreement what the Bible says about heaven and hell.

Who is a believer in God’s eyes? Jesus’ disciples likely believed in a God or what Jesus taught but Jesus only encouraged his disciples and others to follow Him. He didn’t require certain beliefs. I follow what I believe are Jesus’ teachings. Church people often evangelize by focusing on how one can get in heaven/inherit eternal life. Is that really the best approach to those interested to discuss spiritual matters.

Hell No!

Does God really demand we bow the knee or burn in Hell? 

There are good reasons to not agree a literal Hell is a reality in the Bible. It seems odd Jesus or Paul who wrote much of the NT didn’t mention Hell at all. See here.  Words translated into the English word Hell are likely a metaphor to discourage a loveless life. Terrorists demand belief in their God or they don’t even wait to kill you in the afterlife. Is the God of the Bible really similar, only waiting to kill in the afterlife. The God I believe in isn’t a terroristic God here on earth or in the afterlife. A belief in a literal Hell is likely only to come out of one’s interpretation of a Book they believe is inspired by God accurately proclaiming what God is like, and not one’s imagination of a loving God. My God gave me a brain to imagine what a loving God does to those who don’t believe while living a short time here on earth.  See:   Hell No! Hell Is a Myth

The Main Biblical Message May Not Be What You Think

Most who read this blog want to know what the Bible says about salvation and entering heaven which we will discuss briefly below. I suspect many reject Christian claims because of the beliefs said to be true of God. Hell is likely a message Christians get wrong. I am convinced a literal Hell is a biblical myth.  See here.  Also, we get wrong that God condemns gays according to the Bible. Another myth. See here. See   God Loves Gays

But the biggest myth may be that God’s main message according to the Bible is that salvation is about going to Heaven or Hell rather than how to live life here on earth. Hard to believe Hell is the main message if Hell is a myth. See here:  What Really Is The Gospel According To The Bible?

Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn 14:6). Did Jesus really mean God only saves those who accept Jesus? Keep in mind the majority of people born into this world have never heard of Jesus or had a Bible. Jesus wasn’t born until the first century. The Bible as we know it today didn’t exist until the fourth century. John 14:6 could easily be interpreted to mean Jesus’ way of life is the best path toward God. The path to God is through love. (See God After Deconstruction, Oord/Fuller Chapter 9). We Christians need to be less condemning and more open to God’s love and message to people of all religions. Your religion doesn’t matter to God. Your religion likely depends on the nation or family born into. See What religion goes to heaven

Jesus was asked by a religious leader how to have eternal life. (Lk.10:25-37). I doubt the leader had in mind how to get into Heaven away from this Earth. Jesus elsewhere defined eternal life as beginning in the here and now (Jn 17:3), not what awaited in the afterlife. Jesus in this passage simply said to the leader to love God and your neighbor. “Eternal” appears to be on the quality not quantity in life. Jesus spoke of a life worth living here on earth by living a loving life empowered by God. Whether one chooses belief in God and possible empowerment is an individual faith choice. Jesus’ salvation was about living a meaningful life here on earth with God’s help. The Bible/Jesus/God’s message isn’t dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death, but start loving now – a path toward great relationships. See: What Is Main Message About Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Besides, the Bible may claim all can enter heaven anyway regardless of beliefs?

The main message can’t be about God saving us from Hell. There is some biblical evidence, that God is inclusive in the afterlife. In fact, God may welcome all and will attempt to convince them and live with God forever. It is doubtful the main message is one has to believe in Jesus or the Bible. As mentioned, the majority of people born in this world didn’t have access to a Bible or know of Jesus. See:  All Will End Up In Heaven According To The Bible

Being a universalist can be biblical: I am a hopeful universalist because God respects one’s freedom to choose their destiny. It is just hard for me to believe anyone would reject God seeing and knowing what God is really like and not wanting to live forever with loved ones. I guess there are the Hitlers out there!

There are rational reasons for our friends to not believe in God?

Let’s be honest. We can’t prove God exist. Why condemn those who struggle to accept if there is a God (agnostic or atheist). Another fair argument about whether God really exist is why then is God so hiddenThe idea that if an all-loving God truly exists and wants to have a personal relationship with those open to such a relationship – why doesn’t God make their presence obvious. Such signs could convince many, removing distress and uncertainty. On the other hand, there may be reasonable reasons God is hidden here on earth. See:  If God Is Real, Why Then Is God So Hidden?

What the world needs more is love, not more people professing right beliefs or that God is real if not so inclined. God may pursue them in a relationship if one interested. Don’t know! Many have rational reasons to not believe in God. This doesn’t mean God rejects them. The path of love is open to all even atheists and agonists and non-Christians. See: What Does God Think About Believers Trying To Convert Others?

There is one main belief that matters according to all religions

People reject God based on claims about hell, gays and other supposed God-endorsed beliefs. Who blames them? It is important to know what God is really like and that God cares about you in the here and now and not about just the afterlife. Most religions share common ground unless a terrorist including Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism—the Golden rule.  Jesus said when asked what the greatest commandment was:  “Love God and love your neighbor.” [Matthew 22:36-40] Loving God is following God’s ways, surely meaning loving your neighbor as you wish to be loved. If you believe loving others like you want to be love is central in living, you are good with God. See you in Heaven! None of us act on this belief perfectly.

There are reasonable reasons to not believe in God or at least be skeptical. God gets you! If you don’t believe in the Golden Rule, good luck on your death bed regarding relationships. Want to die with few regrets? Want your relationships to suck, don’t follow the golden rule. Few will show up at your funeral. 

Why it Matters

It matters the comfort or lack of comfort you offer others when a loved one dies. No one really knows so why not offer hope. What happens to our loved ones beyond the grave if God was not a part of their life, but they didn’t live like the devil and lived a more moral life than many who claim to trust God? I have summarized reasons why we can hope and give others hope in difficult times that God isn’t a God of chances, depending on where live or family born into: See:

There Is Hope For God’s Grace After Death For our Loves Ones?

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the Done with Religion site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

Read Full Post »

by Mike Edwards

I have suggested no certain beliefs are necessary to be good in God’s eyes. See You May Be A Believer And Don’t Know It!

I have suggested you can doubt there is a God and be good in God’s eyes See Do You Have To Believe In God To Be in God’s Grace

I wish to expand on that last Post. Church people often evangelize by focusing on how one can get in heaven/inherit eternal life. Is that really the best approach to those interested to discuss spiritual matters? Polls suggest the majority of people believe in an afterlife. We can only speculate what eternal existence/afterlife with God is like.

What does the Bible actually say about having eternal life?

Many think the overall biblical message about salvation is to avoid Hell and get into heaven, Romans 10:9 is cited often:  confess with lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the Dead you will be saved.”  But I don’t think the Bible/Jesus/God’s message is dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death. Instead, I am convinced the main biblical message is to start loving now – a path toward great relationships.  God’s main desire is for you isn’t about avoiding Hell, but to live a life avoiding regrets by treating others like you want to be treated. See:

 What Is the Biggest Interpretation Error Of the Bible Regarding The “Gospel”

The main message isn’t about God saving us to enter Heaven after life on Earth

Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn 14:6). Did Jesus really mean God only saves those who accept Jesus? Keep in mind the majority of people born into this world have never heard of Jesus or had a Bible. Jesus wasn’t born until the first century. The Bible as we know it today didn’t exist until the fourth century. John 14:6 could easily be interpreted to mean Jesus’ way of life is the best path toward God. The path to God is through love. (See God After Deconstruction, Oord/Fuller Chapter 9). We Christians need to be less condemning and more open to God’s love and message to people of all religions. See What religion goes to heaven

Jesus was asked by a religious leader how to have eternal life. (Lk.10:25-37). I doubt the leader had in mind how to get into Heaven away from this Earth. Jesus elsewhere defined eternal life as beginning in the here and now (Jn 17:3), not what awaited in the afterlife. Jesus simply said to love God and your neighbor. “Eternal” appears to be on the quality not quantity in life. Jesus spoke of a life worth living being a loving life empowered by God. Whether one chooses belief in God and possible empowerment is an individual choice. Jesus’ salvation was about living a meaningful life here on earth with God’s help. The Bible/Jesus/God’s message isn’t dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death, but start loving now – a path toward great relationships. See: What Is Main Message About Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Besides can’t all enter heaven anyway regardless of beliefs?

There are possible intuitive and biblical reasons to consider God doesn’t required belief in God to be in his grace. The best way I know to understand God’s love is how I or a parent loves their children. My love isn’t based on if my kids show they love me or believe in my guidance. I can’t stop loving them. Neither can God!

There is some biblical evidence that in the afterlife, God welcomes all and will attempt to convince them and live with God forever. There are rational reasons God doesn’t appear physically here on earth. Beside the majority of people born in this world didn’t have access to a Bible or know of Jesus. See:  All Will End Up In Heaven According To The Bible Being a universalist can be biblical: I am a hopeful universalist because ultimately I believe God respects one’s freedom to choose their destiny. It is just hard for me to believe hardly anyone would reject God seeing and knowing what God is really like and not wanting to live forever with loved ones. I guess there are the Hitlers out there!

Hidden argument – reveal yourself God!

Let’s be honest. We can’t prove God exist. Why condemn those who struggle to accept if there is a God (agnostic or atheist). A fair argument about whether God really exist is why then is God so hiddenThe idea that if an all-loving God truly exists and wants to have a personal relationship with those desiring such a relationship, why doesn’t God make their presence obvious. Such signs could convince many, removing distress and uncertainty. There may be reasonable reasons God is hidden here on earth. See:  If God Is Real, Why Then Is God So Hidden?

What one belief only matters according to all religions?

Many religions claim one main belief. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism—the strongest common ground is treating others well. Jesus said when asked what the greatest commandment was: “Love God and love your neighbor.” [Matthew 22:36-40] Loving God is following God’s ways, surely meaning loving your neighbor as you wish to be loved.

So, do you believe in God or least the golden rule?

If you believe loving others like you want to be loved is central in living, you are good in God’s eyes. None of us act on this belief perfectly. If you don’t believe this, good luck on your death bed regarding relationships. Want to die with few regrets. Follow the golden rule. Want your relationships to suck, don’t follow the golden rule. Few will show up at your funeral.

God’s end goal

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the Done with Religion site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

Read Full Post »

by Mike Edwards

In my last Post I wrote about something very controversial. One may be in God’s grace same as a believer and not know it. See here.  What inspired me to write it is that I have many friends who very much live a life of love, yet don’t think of their lifestyle motivation being because of inspiration or belief in God. God is seldom if ever mentioned in their conversations. They live a very moral life, that puts to shame many who refer to themselves as Christians or believers. Many are inclined to believe in a God, though hesitate to take a leap of faith.  

 Now let’s discuss what about those who are skeptical or just don’t even believe in God.  

The Bible may be a main reason for hesitation or unbelief

I am convinced many inclined to believe in God but don’t is because of claims made about God by those who call themselves Christians. It is seldom admitted literature requires interpretation, so your understanding of God according to the Bible could be wrong. Biblical scholars do not agree what the Bible teaches about many moral issues.  I am convinced a literal Hell is a biblical myth.  See here.  We get wrong that God thinks women can’t serve in the same religious or marriage roles that men can.  See here. Also, we get wrong that God condemns gays according to the Bible. See here. But the biggest myth may be that God’s main message according to the Bible is that salvation is about going to Heaven or Hell rather than how to live life here on earth. People reject God based on claims about hell, women, gays. It is important to know that God cares about you here and now and not about just the afterlife. See:

Shouldn’t we assume the Bible isn’t inspired by God – all rants against the Bible

Evil concerns

Perhaps the main reason many who may be inclined to believe in a Supreme Being but aren’t motivated to take the leap of faith is because of the presence of so much evil in the world and God doesn’t intervene. Some explanations are better than many rationalizations give. Perhaps, God can’t be all-powerful because love isn’t controlling.  See here:

Thomas Oord beliefs have brought me the most comfort during my medical challenge. See:

Why Did God Allow My Brain Tumor

Hidden argument – reveal yourself God!

Another fair argument about whether God really exist is why then is God so hiddenThe idea that if an all-loving God truly exists and wants to have a personal relationship with those desiring such a relationship, why doesn’t God make their presence obvious. Such signs could convince many, removing distress and uncertainty. See Greg’s post here:

 Can’t all enter heaven anyway?

Another good reason to believe God doesn’t required belief in God to be in his grace or achieve eternal life is both intuitive and biblical. The best way I know to understand God’s love is how I or a parent loves their children. My love isn’t based on if my kids show they love me or believe in my guidance. I can’t stop loving them. Neither can God!

There is some biblical evidence that in the afterlife, God welcomes all and will attempt to convince them and live with God forever. There are rational reasons God doesn’t appear physically here on earth. Besides, the majority of people born in this world didn’t have access to a Bible or know of Jesus. See:  All Will End Up In Heaven According To The Bible

C’mon Edwards…you have to believe Jesus resurrected from the dead?

See Boyd and Eddy sited in  Was Jesus Real Or Legend?

Jesus’ disciples didn’t believe Jesus’ claims of resurrection until seeing the spike marks three days later after the Cross. Maybe if you saw someone die on a Cross and saw them alive days later, you would believe too. And believe that Jesus was more than human. Are you leaning toward than away from God. God welcomes you.

I currently am convinced Jesus’ resurrection isn’t legend and has historical verification, but others may not. I don’t believe God hates me if I change my mind. Jesus’ disciples didn’t believe Jesus was coming back from the dead, despite witnessing Jesus’ miracles beforehand, until seeking Jesus after his death with their own eyes. I would like to think many of us seeing a man or woman coming back from the grave, after killed on a cross, would be convinced.  I have a hunch God cares the most that you believe in the possibility of a loving God to begin a faith journey.

I have a hunch God especially loves skeptics!

Personally, I don’t want to dimmish the power of belief in a loving God. God’s influence in my life has been awe-inspiring. A parent obviously loves a child who struggles to accept them and their ways. We don’t unlove our skeptical children. Is God any different? Spiritual or human parents don’t desire forced love, which isn’t genuine, but hope for consideration and to prove the possibility of a better relationship. Many may not pursue a relationship with a God they are inclined to believe in because of what they have heard from others what God is like. Don’t believe everything you hear! God only seeks to love you like you wish you were able to love others.  This is the God you can believe in and seek influence in living a purposeful, meaningful live.

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the Done with Religion site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like 

Read Full Post »

by Mike Edwards

If a child brings up the topic Hell, I would first ask a child what they have heard Hell is. It is hard to believe a loving God would create a place to torture those who didn’t believe while a short time here on earth. I personally don’t think God lights you on fire and doesn’t let the fire go out. The only reason one may believe in a literal Hell is because it is believed to be claimed to be real in a Book (Bible) that supposedly God inspired (controlled the writers having correct views of God written down). But it turns out the Bible can be interpreted to believe Hell is not a literal place. See here.

What do I tell adults about the afterlife?

First one must decide what they believe happens after one dies. One of the main topics in churches is about aiming for eternal life. There is an alternative view what Jesus said about eternal life that is not often taught. Jesus defined eternal life as beginning in the here and now (Jn 17:3), not what awaited in the afterlife. Jesus was asked by a religious leader how to have eternal life. (Lk.10:25-37). Jesus simply said to love God and your neighbor. Jesus answered as if “Eternal” appears to be on the quality not quantity in life. Jesus often spoke of a life worth living being a loving life empowered by God. Jesus’ salvation was about living a meaningful life here on earth with God’s help. The Bible/Jesus/God’s message isn’t dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death, but start loving now – a path toward great relationships. 

Few acknowledge the Bible might even declare all go to heaven

It is suggested by many religious leaders that according to the Bible some go to hell and some go to heaven, though doubtful a literal Hell exist. The problem is the Bible, being literature, requires interpretation. It is possible to interpret the Bible as claiming all eventually go to be with God after death.  See here.

We can’t know definitely about the afterlife. So, let your imagination wonder about a loving God/Creator. I am convinced Heaven is a place everyone goes after death here on earth to be with God if so desired. It’s what God wants. In case you don’t believe that, you tell your kid Santa Claus is real and surely you don’t believe that is true – overweight guy visits every house in the world in one night on a sled pulled by reindeers and goes down every chimney. You tell them they will always be safe flying, but you don’t know for sure their plane won’t crash. Tell kids what you think a loving Creator would plan for their creations. Or what would you do as a loving parent? See What Religion Goes To Heaven

So, why not live like Hell!

We are free to speculate what a loving God might do. Go ahead and live like Hell while here on earth! Careful the regrets you, your family, and friends will feel at the end of your life. God only seeks to influence you to avoid a life full of regrets. We are told the message of the Bible is Jesus coming to give you salvation to save you from Hell so you could enter Heaven. I believe Jesus spoke of loving God not to get into heaven but to receive help in loving others as you love yourself now. I seek influence from God in pursuing a life not full of regrets. Try it! It’s on God to come through for you if you choose to follow. Jesus when leaving this earth spoke of having God’s spirit within us.  If you refuse to love, you may end up a lonely, regretful soul. There is a heavenly or hellish way to live life!

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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by Mike Edwards

Many rightly wonder if what Christian leaders claim about God is true. Who can blame them when God supposedly created a place such as Hell, to torture forever those who don’t believe in God a short time here on earth. In this Posts I will propose a question, which can paint one’s view of God, and then will provide a link what I have written before about the topic. I try to keep a page length with bold subtitles. It concerns a question about God that I wish people would be willing to discuss about God, so they could draw their own conclusions than what many Christians claim to be true about God.

The Bible/Jesus/God’s message isn’t dropping to your knees to avoid Hell to go to Heaven after death, but start loving now – a path toward great relationships.  God’s main desire is for you to avoid a life full of regrets. See below link:

What Is Main Message About Bible/Jesus That Christians Get Wrong?

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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by Mike Edwards

Many believe only those who believe/follow God here on earth will make it to heaven in the afterlife. For contrarian views see: What Religion Leads To Heaven If you don’t believe all have a chance to be in heaven regardless of beliefs here on earth, then how can heaven be a happy place if unbelieving loved ones aren’t allowed in heaven.

At least you don’t have to worry about Hell 

One barrier to happiness is a belief held by many that there is a literal hell where God tortures those in the afterlife who don’t believe while here on earth. The only place one may get such an idea about a loving God is a supposed inspired book by God (Bible). The good news is that a literal hell is unlikely biblically speaking. You don’t have to worry about a loved one being kept alive to be tortured. God creating a literal Hell where people are tortured for billions of years for beliefs held a short time here on earth isn’t possible morally or biblically. See here. See here. Humans wouldn’t even create such a place for our enemies. God or humans can’t possibly be happy in heaven if loved ones are tormented after death forever. If God supposedly has such control over happiness, why not use the same power over rebelliousness?

And, all loved ones may go to heaven eventually even according to the Bible? 

Many may reject universalism because they believe the Bible teaches against it. Many who reject universalism often resort to name calling rather than defending their views – referring to those who reject their claims as heretics. What many may not know is there are many biblical scholars who believe the Bible can be interpreted to teach God saves all eventually. See: All Will End Up Heaven According To The Bible!

The main reason to think God doesn’t accept all in heaven when meeting their Creator is because the Bible supposedly says otherwise. Does God’s loving nature allow stopping to forgive? There are consequences in this life and there may be painful reckonings in the life to come, but a loving God can’t stop showing grace. Why would God undergo a complete character lobotomy after we take our last breath here on earth? Is a thief going to enter Paradise but not others with lesser sins because they weren’t next to Jesus hanging on a Cross right before their last breath? God’s grace doesn’t depend on whether one has more opportunities to respond to God than others. The Bible doesn’t rule out decisions after life here on earth. Even imperfect human parents wouldn’t cut off a child who eventually accepts responsibilities for their actions. Universalism is possible or even probably true because there can’t be a deadline or time limit on God’s love. There isn’t on my love for my children. Am I a better lover than God?  We are told to forgive our enemies as many times as necessary but God doesn’t?

Even the Bible doesn’t rule out decisions after death regarding one’s eternal destination

John 5:25 says that the dead will hear the voice of God and those who hear will live. Verse 29 says those who have done evil will be condemned but we do not know whether repentance will take place. Romans 14:11-12 says: “It is written: As surely as I live, says the Lord, “every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.” So then, we will all give an account of ourselves to God.” Why couldn’t some make a decision at Judgment? I Peter 3:18-20 speaks of Jesus preaching to those in Noah’s day who were disobedient. Preaching is normally for the opportunity to respond.  I Peter 4:6 goes on to say that the dead can live according to God’s spirit. Eternal decisions after death doesn’t diminish the blessings of changing here on earth. A perfect, merciful God can best decide when enough chances are given.

A loving God can’t be a God of chance!

A loving God wouldn’t only let Christians into heaven when the majority of people born into this world died without knowledge of Jesus the Christ. Besides, one’s religion or rebellion against a certain religion is often based on the family born into whether it is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. No human or spiritual parent brings children into the world requiring that one’s eternal destination is based on circumstances out of one’s control.

What about justice though?

The Bible talks about everyone, whether having faith here on earth or not, will be judged (2 Cor 5:10; Rom 14:12). Punishment doesn’t bring back a victim’s robbed memories of the future due to the murder of a loved one. Justice can be understanding your victim’s pain and accepting the harmfulness of your actions. After death God may seek for all to face every action of betrayal and how it felt to their victims. The cleansing and educative effect may take longer for some than others. Humans, like God may forgive their enemies if they truly regret their actions and seek forgiveness. Justice from a fair, merciful God is possible despite people being given a second chance after death.

Happiness in Heaven possible even if loved one not there

I supposed it is possible some may reject God and Heaven when meeting their Creator and chose final death. So, God may not be able to save all. But, if my loved one sees what God is really like meeting and still reject God, I can better except it is their choice than God rejecting them. I can better accept their death than forcing them to be in heaven is fair and I can be content with that decision.

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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by Mike Edwards

Okay. My kids are nearing their 40s. What I wish I had said and now have a chance with my grandchildren.

I linked below my last two Posts written about hell.

12 Reasons To Believe Hell Is A Myth!

Why Hell Can’t Be True!

And a Site with several articles about Heaven:

What Religion Goes To Heaven

No one would think a loving God or caring parent would create a place to torture those who didn’t believe while a short time here on earth. Such pain serves no purpose. Most humans wouldn’t even treat their enemies that way. The only reason one may believe in Hell is because it is believed to be claimed to be real in a Book (Bible) that supposedly God inspired (controlled the writers having correct views of God written down). But it turns out the Bible can be interpreted to not believe Hell is a literal place. See articles above.

What I tell a young child about heaven and hell when they bring it up.

Heaven is a place everyone goes after death here on earth to be with God. See link above about Heaven. It case you don’t believe that, you tell your kid Santa Claus is real and surely you don’t believe that is true – overweight guy visits every house in the world in one night on a sled pulled by reindeers and goes down every chimney. You tell them they will always be safe flying, but you don’t know for sure their plane won’t crash.

I may ask a child what they have heard Hell is. I would tell a child Hell is not a literal place. It is sometimes mentioned in the Bible as a place people don’t believe in God’s or don’t want God’s influence- not treating others kindly or like you want to be treated. I tell adults Hell is a metaphor (There is a heavenly or hellish way to live life).

Parents – God’s influence in life is similar to the influence you hope to have in your kid’s life.

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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by Mike Edwards

Universalism is a theological belief that God eventually saves all to go to heaven after death. Some may even experience open-mindedness in the afterlife after meeting their Creator. God never gives up. God’s love is relentless. This doesn’t mean some won’t reject God though it is hard to conceive some rejecting a perfect place such as heaven as opposed to death (Hell is a Myth, See here. ) It is hard to believe but possible that some people, even if they were given infinite chances in eternity, would still reject God forever. But universalism as least means all have final chances after meeting their Creator in the afterlife, to believe and accept God’s ways.

Why universalism makes godly sense 

Does God’s loving nature allow stopping to forgive? There are consequences in this life and there may be painful reckonings in the life to come, but a loving God can’t stop showing grace. Why would God undergo a complete character lobotomy after we take our last breath here on earth? Is a thief going to enter Paradise but not others with lesser sins because they weren’t next to Jesus hanging on a Cross right before their last breath? God’s grace doesn’t depend on whether one has more opportunities to respond to God than others. Even imperfect human parents wouldn’t cut off a child who eventually accepts responsibilities for their actions. Universalism is possible or even probably true because there can’t be a deadline or time limit on God’s love. There isn’t on my love for my children. Am I a better lover than God?  We are told to forgive our enemies as many times as necessary but God doesn’t? 

Universalism seems true even according to the Bible 

Many may reject universalism because they believe the Bible teaches against it. Many who reject universalism often resort to name calling rather than defending their views – referring to those who reject their claims as heretics. What many may not know is there are many biblical scholars who believe the Bible can be interpreted to teach God saves all eventually. See: All Will End Up Heaven According To The Bible!

Universalism seems true because Hell is a myth: 

Many who believe God exists agree God has given us moral intuitions to discern evil from good. We don’t need a Book to know sexual abuse or murder is wrong. God creating a literal Hell where people are tortured for billions of years for beliefs held a short time here on earth isn’t possible morally or biblically. See here. See here. Humans wouldn’t even create such a place for our enemies. God or humans can’t possibly be happy in heaven if loved ones are tormented after death forever. If God supposedly has such control over happiness, why not use the same power over rebelliousness?

Without Hell is there is a reason to consider faith in God here on earth? 

It is implied Hell/fear is necessary to want to follow God. The Bible seems to suggest God seeks to empower us to be the unselfish people we deep down desire to be, not to be fearful of a destiny to be tortured forever in the afterlife. Jesus sought to inspire others to seek God’s help in loving others for the good of the world. Jesus simply commended Zacchaeus for recognizing a journey necessary to avoid personal destruction because of sin. Salvation is not a future destination but a currently reality (Lk 19).  Jesus told the woman who had committed adultery not how to avoid hell but: “go now, and leave your life of sin” (John 8).  Why pursue God without fear? Surely a loving God seeks to encourage us to pursue heavenly than worldly ways here on earth for our own happiness.

What about Justice? 

The Bible talks about everyone, whether having faith here on earth or not, will be judged (2 Cor 5:10; Rom 14:12). Punishment doesn’t bring back a victim’s robbed memories of the future due to the murder of a loved one. Justice can be understanding your victim’s pain and accepting the harmfulness of your actions. After death God may seek for all to face every action of betrayal and how it felt to their victims. The cleansing and educative effect may take longer for some than others. Humans like God may forgive their enemies if they truly regret their actions and seek forgiveness. Justice from a fair, merciful God is possible despite people being given a second chance after death.

Mike Edwards was added as a writer and has been a great addition to the site. Mike provides many interesting views and various ways of looking at things. He is not afraid to ask questions and he keeps an open mind as to teachings of the institutional church. Mike also has his own site where he writes at What God May Really Be Like

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by Jim Gordon

I grew up in the traditional church environment and followed the religious teachings and doctrines over the years. I have seen a lot of things that I now question and wonder why things were done that way.

Over the years, many of us have come to see God as super human being sitting on a huge throne up in heaven just waiting to punish us for our mistakes. We see God as being far away, impersonal, judgmental and many times as someone to fear.

Yet when we think about the life of Christ and know he was sent from God to show us what God is really like, we come to see God in a different way. When we read about how Jesus lived and treated people, we see him as loving, compassionate, kind and accepting. Jesus came to show us that God is the same way.

After Jesus left this life on earth God sent the Holy Spirit to live within us. Think about it, God in Spirit form lives within us and among us right now. God is not a super human being way up there somewhere far away, but is Spirit and is right here within us.

God is not out to get us and punish us every time we mess up. I think God gets a bad reputation from some of the writings in the Bible due to mistranslations, different word meanings and not understanding customs of the times. I believe men, although they were inspired by God, wrote down some of their personal views. Obviously, if you were inspired by someone to write a book you would still write it from your perspective. Anything man has a hand in is going to be flawed. The Bible, when combined with the leading of the Holy Spirit is purposeful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, and in guiding us to the living Word of God who is Jesus.

Rather than running around being afraid of God and waiting for the judgment of God to fall, look at Jesus and see that God is love. Whenever correction is needed it is only for our good and it is done in love. Just as a loving parent sometimes corrects their child. it is done in love and for the child’s own good. We are not waiting to be destroyed by a God who loves judgment and condemnation. We are living with a God who is love, who created us and who wants the best for us during our time on earth.

Stop being afraid of God and continue to seek fellowship with God. If you hear a pastor telling you that God is out to get you and that you had better shape up or else, get away from there and find brothers and sisters in Christ who will be encouragers and who will help build you up rather than condemn and scare you. Fear of judgment will not lead you into a loving relationship with God. Only true, godly love will be what draws us into fellowship with God. God is love. For those of us who are followers of Jesus we should also be known for our love. As Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-39, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Live a godly life by loving people. Rather than being known for judgment, condemnation, hatred and what you are against, show the love of God. Be kind to all people and be known for your love of your fellow human beings.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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