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God’s Message In The Bible Isn’t Go To Hell But What ?

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , on January 21, 2024|

By Mike Edwards

Church folks have been told forever, who then tell others, that Jesus’ life and death on the Cross was to spare us from going to Hell to appease God’s anger about our sins. This isn’t how Jesus interacted with others. Relationships with humans or God can’t be built on fear and anger rather than love and grace. Christians often try to save others from a fiery afterlife rather than discussing how God’s presence in our life can help become more the person we desire to become deep down. Godly living in this world leads to a meaningful life with less regrets.

Has God’s message (Gospel) been hijacked?

Jesus’ message couldn’t be about avoiding Hell. Common understandings of Hell aren’t necessarily biblical. See here. Jesus was asked by a religious expert how to have eternal life. Jesus spoke of how to start living here on earth not what awaited in the afterlife. He simply said to love God and your neighbor (Lk.10:25-37). I am convinced Jesus spoke of loving God not to get into heaven but to receive help in loving others as you love yourself. You don’t have to drop to your knees and say a prayer to get “in” with God. You only have to want God’s help. Jesus’ salvation was about living a meaningful life here on earth with God’s help.

How did Jesus interact with others in the Gospels? 

Most Christians believe to understand Jesus is to understand God. I read through the Gospel of Mark to see what Jesus’ message was to others. Mark’s Gospel is considered the earliest written from which Matthew and Luke cited. In all the Gospels Jesus never advises to preach to the masses to save them from Hell in the afterlife. Jesus sought to help others avoid hell here on earth. Sin is destructive. It has natural consequences.  

  • When Jesus met his disciples, he only said “follow me.” (Mark 1: 16:17, 2:14) A set of beliefs wasn’t required. I don’t see any message to the disciples other than living a life worth living.
  • Jesus said “Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mark 3:35) Being close to God or Jesus isn’t claiming certain beliefs or traditions; Jesus simply encouraged actions that lead to loving others as yourself. “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.” (Mark 9:35)
  • People were bringing children to Jesus and he said “anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15) The kingdom of God was not a future home but a current reality. Jesus has just said “some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (Mark 9:1)
  • A rich person asked how to have eternal life. Jesus said sell everything and follow me. (Mark 10: 17-31) Surely Jesus’ point was to love people more than possessions. What does following Jesus mean? When asked what was the greatest commandments, Jesus only said to love God and your neighbors (Mark 12:30-31). What! Not drop to your knees and say a prayer!
  • The above interactions are similar to when Jesus dealt with the women caught in adultery. (Jn. 7:53-8:11) Jesus only encouraged the woman to go and sin no more. Where was his evangelical spiel. He might never see her again! Apparently, Jesus came to encourage living a loving life toward others and yourself. That’s the way a loving God does.

God seeks to help avoid a life full of regrets

We are often told the main message of the Bible is Jesus coming to give you salvation to save you from Hell so you could enter Heaven. I am convinced Jesus spoke of loving God not to get into heaven but to receive help in loving others as you love yourself. There are no beliefs necessary. You only have to want God’s help in pursuing a life not full of regrets. Try it! It’s on God to come through for you if you choose to follow. Jesus when leaving this earth spoke of having God’s spirit within us. The Cross is about our violence, not God requiring violence to forgive us. Killing a man simply for claiming to be God reveals our ugly violent nature not God’s. Personally, following God has inspired and encouraged me to be the person I desire to be. I haven’t arrived but I’m on that journey.

What Really Is God’s Message To Us According To The Bible?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

 

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5 Lies About God Turn Many Away From God!

Posted in Acceptance, Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , , , , , , on December 24, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

Lies may be too strong a word. I can’t prove with certainty what God’s views are regarding women’s roles, gays, etc. But it is only intuitive that a Creator loves the ways their creations ought to love one another. All rational humans seem to have the same internal moral code – to love others like they want to be loved. The Bible can’t be the definitive word about God because scholars don’t all agree what the Bible claims about God on many moral issues. We also can’t prove God controlled prophets or writers to always understand God perfectly. We can imagine what a loving God is like though our moral consciences. See here.

God does not torture or kill infidels 

We know bad religion when we see it. Any religion that advocates or excuses those, who don’t accept their belief, being killed in this life is evil. Christianity must avoid having any comparisons with such a religion. A loving God can’t possible light infidels on fire and then not letting them die in the afterlife. Christians must reject such a view of Hell. Now, when one meets their Creator and rejects living a loving/godly life, I can see them being allowed to pass on into final death. I wrote that Hell (a place of forever punishment) is doubtful biblically and even morally from a loving God. See here.   See here.

God does not condemn gays for attractions they have no control over

How could a loving God possibly condemn gays when they can no more choose who they are attracted to than straights can? If you are a straight man, don’t you naturally have to fight not looking at naked women than men? Ask gays their battle! Who chooses to be gay when having to hide one’s sexuality because of bigotry and hostility? Even if you believe God inspired every word in the Bible and agrees with all written about God, not all biblical scholars interpret that Bible condemning monogamous gay relationships. See here. I am begging you to not condemn gays because the Bible supposedly does. Please be open to the possibility that you may be wrong.

God does not believe only men can serve certain roles 

Women suffer violence because some claim the Bible says God wants women submissive to men in ways men are not similarly submissive to women. It doesn’t matter all men don’t take a mile when given an inch. Enough do! Many women can obviously feel disrespected and confused why a supposedly loving God would choose according to gender than gifts in serving in the religious institutes. Men, walk in their shoes if you had certain leadership gifts. Most would agree it is immoral to favor one based on the color of their skin. Intuitively, to favor men over women for particular roles seems sexist. Scholars don’t agree how the Bible should be interpreted on roles for women in the home or church. See here.

God does not exclude infidels from Heaven after death 

One’s religion or rebellion against a certain religion is often based on the family born into whether it is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Is God a God of chance? A loving God wouldn’t only let Christians into heaven when the majority of people born into this world died without knowledge of Jesus the Christ. No human or spiritual parent brings children into the world requiring that one’s eternal destination is based on circumstances out of one’s control. Only extremists believe you must adhere to a certain religion in this life or the life to come or be killed. Even the Bible possibly suggests all will eventually end up in Heaven. See here.

God can’t control evil or your suffering

One of the biggest reasons for being an atheist is because of the presence of evil in our world. Some suggest God doesn’t intervene in evil or suffering because all evil eventually leads to good, as if some grand plan by God. Tell that to sexual abuse victims or family members of murdered victims. We must consider that God can’t be all-powerful. Perfect love can’t be controlling. Ask any adult child. Evil and your suffering may be because God cannot intervene single-handedly without being controlling. Such freedom by God is necessary for authentic relationships to develop. Forced love is an oxymoron. God is surely doing all they can to stop suffering with the help of others. The alternative is that God can always stop your suffering and doesn’t, or that God arbitrarily stops other’s sufferings sometimes but not yours. I doubt it! 

How can we stop turning people away from God? 

I believe if we at least stopped claiming certainty in God’s name regarding gays, women’ roles in marriage or in church, or the destiny of those who don’t choose a certain religion in this life are destined to never be with God in the afterlife, we would have more open conversations and reveal more the loving God we believe in. Your interpretation may be wrong, so stay openminded. Christian leaders – show some courage and change your stance. You may not agree with my interpretations, but I will admit my interpretation could be wrong if you will. Don’t claim you have God all figured out according to a Book. Yes, we can claim God hates evil such as physical or sexual abuse, but for example listen to each gay’s story and love them like you would want to be loved if you had the same journey.

5 Lies About God Turn Many Away From God!

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Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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What Is The Greatest Sin Of All? What All Religions Must Agree About God!

Posted in Acceptance of Others, christian living, religion, tagged , , , , , , , on December 17, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

Okay! Murder, physical or sexual abuse, torture, etc. are horrific. But there is another deadly relationship killer that may not be as obvious. I am not fond of the word sin. God obviously hates evil when one has no regrets harming others, but God hates the sin more than the sinner. I doubt God disgustingly refer to us as sinners under their breathe when we regret our actions, when we struggle to change habitual patterns that are not in our best interest. Hardly a day doesn’t go by that I don’t live up to the standard I have set for myself. God only desires what we know we ought to desire for ourselves and others. God simply wants to come along aside to support and encourage.

The greatest sin may be not treating others like you want to be treated 

Previously, I wrote that God’s greatest desire is for us to treat others like we want to be treated. See here.  Jesus was asked what was the most important law by a religious-type (Mark 12:28-34). Religion-keepers try to stay in power by declaring all their rules are God’s rules. Jesus simply said to love God and love others as yourself. Jesus wasn’t claiming God was egotistical, only that loving God is the same as loving others like you want to be loved. Jesus wasn’t saying what hoops to jump through to be loved by God. Jesus was encouraging a lifestyle to pursue with God’s help. 

The sin of certainty may be the greatest way we fail living by the golden rule 

We are all tempted to insist we are right and the other side if wrong. Couples acting this way are headed toward divorce. God-followers and religious leaders seem hell-bent in telling people what they must believe about God according to their understanding and interpretation of the Bible. Politicians seem hell-bent in claiming certainty regarding policies such as climate change and immigration, though there are reasonable arguments on both sides of the aisle. Open-minded uncertainty, rather than supposed certainty, could go a long way to healing our nation and personal relationships. Stop condemning gays or insisting on certain women roles/dress according to your understanding. Imagine if you were gay or a woman and ask how you would want to be treated!

Why are people so damn certain? 

  • Christians often claim those who support gay marriages are heretics. They claim their truth because the Bible says so. They fail to understand ancient literature is subject to interpretations and biblical scholars don’t agree that God condemns gays. See here.
  • Why do politicians claim certainty other than to gain votes? Covid shots were mandated though there were disagreements in the beginning that the Shots prevented infection and transmission. They didn’t! Politicians may claim certainty to avoid arguing their “truth” to convince others
  • Individuals fall in love with certainty. If certain beliefs about God are challenged, what other beliefs they were taught could be wrong? Uncertainty can increase anxiety, but certainty leads to forcing “supposed” truths onto others. 

Uncertainty doesn’t result in lawlessness 

Who doesn’t believe rape is wrong unless a terrorist? Of course, terrorists who rape believe their partner shouldn’t be raped. It is often said we best know God according to “biblical truths.” The truth is contrary biblical interpretations exist for many moral issues. See here. I don’t know any reasonable God or non-God person that doesn’t respect the golden rule in relationships. Certain laws are just common, moral sense. Who doesn’t believe physical or sexual abuse is wrong? Different opinions, such as immigration or climate matters expressed without physical or verbal aggression, can stand side by side as we continually evaluate the most loving approach. Open discussions can steer us away from demanding “supposed truths.”

Changing for the future 

  • We must first stop claiming our views are morally superior to those we disagree with unless speaking of universal accepted moral truths
  • We must handle differences with physical and emotional civility
  • We can begin conversations by looking for areas we agree
  • We can discuss differences by defending our reasoning, respecting the opinions of others, and commit to growing in understanding
  • In a democratic society, which is better than the rule of those in power, the vote of the majority must be followed until voted on again 

What Is The Greatest Sin Of All? What All Religions Must Agree About God!

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. He couldn’t find enough people to discuss God openly so he started blogging years ago. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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What Does God Care About The Most?

Posted in Bible, christian living, religion, tagged , , , , on November 26, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

We have been told forever it seems that Jesus’ death on the Cross was to spare us from going to Hell to appease God’s anger about our sins. All we have to do is drop to our knees and say a prayer. Biblical scholars with interpretation expertise suggest many explanations about Jesus’ death. See here. Salvation isn’t about a future event but present living. Genuine spiritual or human relationships can’t be built on fear and anger rather than love and grace.

What did Jesus say was the most important?

When Jesus was asked what were the greatest commandments or how to have eternal life, He didn’t talk about a future destiny. He said to start loving God and your neighbor as yourself (Lk.10:25-37; Mt. 22:37-40). God isn’t full of themselves. Loving God inspires loving others to the fullest. Jesus simply commended Zacchaeus for recognizing a journey necessary to avoid personal destruction because of sin. Jesus cared about life here on earth (Lk 19).  Jesus told the woman who had committed adultery: “go now, and leave your life of sin” (John 8). Sin destroys and doesn’t lead to personal happiness in the long-run!

But doesn’t the Bible say fear God?

A survey of the times “fear of God” is encouraged in the Bible suggests fearing God was intended for those who don’t fear evil. God’s anger was against wickedness. God’s anger is simply a side of God’s love to steer one away from personal and worldly destruction. God hates what evil does to us. Human parents warn their children and show disgust for actions leading to destruction of others. God’s love, not their wrath, was center stage in Scriptures (I John 4:8).

God cares the most about doing good not evil 

Dennis Prager  argues in the Bible God cares the most how you treat others. Are you going to do good or evil in your relationships? He illustrates how this was God’s greatest desire from the beginning. Only in the Bible’s story did God destroy mankind because people were evil. According to the contemporaneous ancient Near East Babylonian story, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the gods destroyed humanity (except for a man named Utnapishtim) because humans made so much noise they kept the gods awake. Many other passages illustrate God cares the most about doing good.

How can we do the most good?  

Most understand the importance of treating others like you want to be treated. When others mess up, you want them to at least admit their wrongs and make amends. Easier said than done. Surely a loving God seeks to influence and encourage us to pursue heavenly than worldly ways here on earth. God seeks to empower us to be the unselfish people we deep down desire to be. Jesus sought to inspire us to seek God’s help in loving others for the good of the world. Godly living is what leads to true happiness. God is dying to help you and others have fewer relational regrets by living a meaningful life.

What Does God Care About The Most?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Does Prophecy In The Bible Really Predict The Future?

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , on November 19, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

Many claim dogmatically that the Bible predicts future events such as what is happening in Israel currently and the end-times when Jesus returns down to earth. I am no biblical scholar, but many who makes such claims fail to recognize that biblical experts don’t agree on the meaning of many passages that may or may not relate to future events. We all must admit there is no consensus of beliefs about prophecies in the Bible. I trust more those who admit their interpretation of ancient literature (Bible) could be wrong.

Why our views on prophecy matter!

It is hard for people to take God seriously if future events supposedly made according to the Bible keep not coming true. Secondly, prophecies that aren’t conditional on how people respond to God assumes God doesn’t respect the freedom to change. God didn’t force anyone to kill Jesus. They could have accepted Jesus’ message. Finally, believing the world is coming to an end and somehow God is going to rescue you in the sky can lead to passivity. We mustn’t wait on God to “fix” things by coming again. We must do all we can for the next generation!

Prophecies may only be warning about future possibilities 

I have written here why God can’t know the future, thus prophecies aren’t likely claiming what definitely will happen in the future. One can assume most prophecies are conditional because God changes if people will repent of their evil ways. God’s nature requires most prophecies predicated on human actions being conditional. For example, in the Old Testament Jonah advised Ninevah they would be destroyed in 40 days, but then God relented because the Ninevites turn from their evil ways. Admittedly, some prophecies many suggest what God intends to do that doesn’t impact human freedom – God can promise an afterlife after death.

In the New Testament Jesus predicted Peter would deny Him three times but Jesus also prayed Peter’s faith would not fail (Lk. 22: 32-34). Predictions stated to be from God can be conditional. A professor may observe a student and warn they will fail their class but hoping the student avoids such failure. Keep in mind the future is not totally unpredictable for humans much less God. A skilled physician can predict the death of a seemingly healthy individual because of symptoms that escape the untrained eye. Remember, God’s Spirit is present everywhere, thus God’s knowledge is unimaginably extensive.  

What about OT predictions about Jesus the Messiah?

The most talked about prophecies in the Old Testament (OT) is the forthcoming of the Messiah Jesus and their subsequent death. But Jesus prayed to God that He might be spared of dying on the Cross (Mt. 26:39). Such a prayer seems meaningless unless Jesus’ life could have been spared. God changes their mind if people change. Psalm 22 is said to predict Jesus’ life and crucifixion. These passages could also be referring to sufferings known by the writer in OT times such as King David. NT writers can use past historical passages to illustrate Jesus’ current life and crucifixion.

What about “end times” mentioned in the Bible? 

There is much talk of biblical prophecies coming to pass because of what is going on between Israel and Hamas. Is God coming again (rapture/tribulation/Armageddon) to destroy this world as we know it and set up God’s reign? There is some biblical evidence that the end times mentioned refer to what happened in the first century, thus having been fulfilled:

  • If the Bible teaches God is coming again to destroy the world in the future, why did Jesus tell his audience that supposed predictions about the world ending (maybe not a physical ending) would happen in their lifetime: “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass way until all these things have happened” (Mt. 24:34)?” Jesus said to his audience when asked about the last days: “watch out that no one deceives you….you will hear of wars and rumors of war (Mt. 24:4-6). Why would Jesus use such language if the world was going to end 2000 years and counting?
  • The Apostle Paul assured his audience they have not missed the “day of the Lord” (2 Thess. 2:1-12). Why was Paul’s audience fearful they could miss the coming of Jesus if such a coming is supposedly a rapture-removing, visible, world-ending coming? Only a non-visible, spiritual coming of Jesus could possibly be missed. The disciples did not think of Jesus’ coming as being visible as they ask: “what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age” (Mt. 24:3). Besides, Peter writes to his readers in the first century that “the end of all things is at hand” (1 Pe. 4:7). 

Does Prophecy In The Bible Really Predict The Future?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

 

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All Will End Up In Heaven According To The Bible!

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , , on September 24, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

I admit the title of this Post is bold. If my title had been “Where Will One End Up After Death?” you may not have bothered to read, assuming I would support common claims about the threat of Hell if you dare to rebel against God. Translation and interpretation challenges don’t guarantee a definitive answer from a Book. Also, biblical writers may not know all about the afterlife because God didn’t speak to them directly. We are free to speculate about a loving God’s character and actions. I have a strong inclination all are going to heaven!

Hell is morally and biblically impossible 

Many who believe God exist agree God has given us moral intuitions to discern evil from good. We don’t need a Book to know sexual abuse or murder is wrong. God creating a literal Hell where people are tortured for billions of years for beliefs held a short time here on earth isn’t possible morally or biblically. See here. See here. Humans wouldn’t even create such a place for our enemies. God or humans can’t possibly be happy in heaven if loved ones are tormented after death forever. If God supposedly has such control over happiness, why not use the same power over rebelliousness?

God giving up isn’t divinely possible 

God’s nature doesn’t allow giving up on forgiving. There are consequences in this life and there may be painful reckonings in the life to come, but God can’t stop showing grace. Why would God undergo a complete character lobotomy after we take our last breath here on earth? Is a thief going to enter Paradise but not others with lesser sins because they weren’t next to Jesus hanging on Cross right before their last breath? God’s grace doesn’t depend on whether one has more opportunities to respond to God than others. Even imperfect human parents wouldn’t cut off a child who eventually accepts responsibilities for their actions. 

Turns out even the Bible suggests all will be saved

Skeptic readers may argue that the Bible clearly says only those who believe go to Heaven. One may be surprised that just as many verses imply God will save everyone. David Bentley Hart reminds us of the many verses in the Bible that suggest God will eventually save all. The following verses are Hart’s translation from the Greek as he attempts to not include or add words that may make the reading easier or possible convey a translator’s personal belief about being saved:

Romans 5:18-19

So, then, just as through one transgression came condemnation for all human beings, so also through one act of righteousness came a rectification of life for all human beings; for, just as by the heedlessness of one man the many were rendered sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be rendered righteous 

I Cor 15:22

For just as in Adam all die, so also in the Anointed (Christ) all will be given life 

2 Cor 5:14

For the love of the Anointed constrains us, having reached this judgment: that one died on behalf of all; all then have died

Rom 11:32

For God shut up everyone in obstinacy so that he might show mercy to everyone

I Tim 2:3-6

…our savior God, who intends all human beings to be saved and come to a full knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and also one mediator of God and human beings: a human being, the Anointed One Jesus, who gave himself as a liberation fee for all

Titus 2: 11

For the grace of God has appeared, giving salvation to all human beings

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will drag everyone to me

John 12:47

For I came not that I might judge the cosmos, but that I might save the cosmos

I John 4:14

And we have seen and attest that the Father has sent the Son as savior of the cosmos

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not delaying what is prompted, as some reckon delay, but is magnanimous toward you, intending for no one to perish, but rather for all to advance to a change of heart

Philip 2:9-11

For which reasons God also exalted him on high and graced him with the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend – of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean – and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father

I John 2:2

And he is atonement for our sins, and not only for ours, but for the whole cosmos

I Tim 4:10

We have hoped in a living God who is the savior of all human beings especially those who have faith

What about Justice? 

Punishment doesn’t bring back a victim’s robbed memories of the future due to the murder of a loved one. Real justice is understanding your victim’s pain and accepting the harmfulness of your actions. After death God may bring to memory every action of betrayal and how it felt to their victims. The cleansing and educative effect may take longer for some than others. Humans like God may forgive their enemies if they truly regret their actions and seek forgiveness. Justice from a fair, merciful God is possible despite people being given a second chance after death.

What would a loving God do after death here on Earth? 

We don’t know what happens after life here on earth. No one can claim the Bible has the definitive answer. We are free to speculate what a loving God might do.  It is just as reasonable, if not more reasonable, to believe a loving God that is able to create will take forever, if necessary, to save everyone from themselves. God only wants to help you become the person you deep down desire to come. We will fail but God is quick to forgive and help us to get back up. Go ahead and live like Hell while here on earth! Careful the regrets you, your family, and friends will feel at the end of your life. Careful that our character developed here on earth may make the change process longer and more painful in the life to come.

All Will End Up In Heaven According To The Bible!

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Why Hell Can’t Be True!

Posted in Bible, christian living, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , on September 17, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

The Gospel or God’s main message has been hijacked! We have been told forever it seems that Jesus’ death on the Cross was to spare us from going to Hell to appease God’s angry about our sins. What kind of spiritual or human relationship is built on fear and avoiding fiery torture. A literal Hell can’t be morally or biblically possible.

Hell is morally impossible

Most who believe God exist agree God has given us moral intuitions to discern evil from good. We don’t need a Book to tell us that sexual abuse or murder is wrong. God creating a literal Hell where people are tortured for billions of years for beliefs held a short time here on earth isn’t morally possible. We humans wouldn’t even create such a place or destination for our enemies. If God’s goodness isn’t the same as human goodness, God then sometimes isn’t good. God or humans can’t possibly be happy in heaven if loved ones are being tormented after death day after day. If God supposedly has such control over happiness, why not use the same power over rebelliousness?

Hell is an impossible free choice 

For a minute forget about the Hitler example and think of family and friends who don’t believe in God or follow Jesus the way you do. They may score higher on the morality scale than you. One may suggest that God gives one the freedom to choose their destiny after life here on earth. How is it rationally possible for anyone to choose hell/torture in their right mind over Heaven. No one puts their hand in a fire and leaves it there. We would call them insane, not truly free. One is not truly free if they choose Hell. If Hell was true, a loving God would be obligated to make sure one understood this reality. Doing so would make the choice of Hell impossible. 

God can’t possibly believe in Hell

Many who argue for the reality of Hell because of the Bible suggest that same Bible reveals God is all-knowing including knowing the future. I have claimed as others that God’s can’t know the future if freedom is genuine. See here.  If God somehow knew the future, that means God created knowing millions would burn in Hell forever. It may be suggested that is one’s choice, but I argued above no one would freely choose Hell. You can’t convince me that God would ever create a human being if Hell was a reality. I wouldn’t have children if I knew their destination may be forever torture. Why would God?

God giving up isn’t conceivable 

Can God really stop being forgiving? Bible scholars don’t agree whether the Bible suggests second chances after death or not. There are consequences in this life and there may be painful reckonings in the life to come, but God can’t stop showing grace. Why would God have a complete character lobotomy after we take our last breath here on earth? Is a thief going to enter Paradise but not others with lesser sins because they weren’t next to Jesus hanging on Cross right before their last breath? God’s grace doesn’t depend on whether one has more opportunities to respond to God than others. Even imperfect human parents wouldn’t cut off a child who eventually accepts responsibilities for their actions.

The only reason one may believe in Hell because of the Bible 

No one really believes in their belief that Hell is real. If they did, they would never stop convincing their loved ones and friends they will burn forever if they don’t repent. The only reason one might believe in Hell is because they believe the Bible obligates them to do so. The English word “Hell” is a translation of the Greek word Gehenna. Jesus spoke of a place called Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) outside of Jerusalem. Corpse were burned not kept alive. This is how you know interpretations have gone array. They have used a metaphor to push fear to obey and that you are kept alive in the fire to continue burning. Hell isn’t biblical. See here.

Why it matters knowing Hell isn’t real

Hell doesn’t lead to a relationship with God or even changed lives. What kind of relationship comes forth when threatened with endless torture if you don’t obey. Are you close to your parents because of fear, or because they are the kind of people you want to grow up to be like? God isn’t saving you from Hell, but hoping to help you become more the person you desire to be while here on life. Go ahead and live like Hell while here on earth! Careful the regrets you, your family, and friends will feel at the end of your life. Fear may work temporarily in the religion or political arena, but it can’t last. Jesus came to encourage living a life worth living – not to get you out of Hell.

Credit: That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation: Hart, David Bentley:

Why Hell Can’t Be True!

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Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Why Is It So Awkward To Talk About God With Others?

Posted in christian living, institutional church, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , on July 2, 2023|

By Mike Edwards

Is your experience similar to mine? I enjoy talking about God for spiritual health reasons without any hidden agenda to convert others, but I begin blogging years ago about God because few want to discuss what role God plays in their life. Church can be one place to discuss God, but many of us discovered our contrarian questions weren’t always welcomed in such a setting so we moved on. We discuss family and work relationships. Why not our relationship with God?

Differences of opinions can be uncomfortable

Spiritual topics, like politics, can be touchy. There are diverse opinions in the spiritual arena which might lead to avoiding potential conflict. Groupthink is just human nature. Most humans desire to integrate with a group, get along with its members, and benefit from them. Discussing opposing beliefs can be uncomfortable and can lead to questioning our own beliefs thus creating anxiety.

Christians tend to have an “agenda” reputation

Conversations with God followers often feels like them trying to change your beliefs. We all hate when our partner doesn’t listen and just wants to give advice. I hate to admit I use to have an agenda with those outside the institutional church. I was taught God’s good news was saving people from Hell so they could get into Heaven. I was wrong according to Jesus. See here.   The ship may have sailed others trusting us to have open conversations. All I know to do is to focus on a life where actions speak louder than words in case others want to pursue convos about God.

Claims made about God stifle conversations 

Many of us are into God but many of us left the institutional church because claims about God’s character was contrary to our deepest moral intuitions. Why believe in a God you can’t respect. It is only intuitive that a Creator loves the ways their creations ought to love one another. Beliefs about God’s love that don’t match how you know you ought to love your neighbor may be amiss. Don’t believe everything you hear about God! See here.

Some don’t want to give up stuff or change

Spiritual folks are too quick to assume people don’t discuss God to avoid self-reflection. I suppose many may believe there is a God but don’t pursue because it may require changing some habits, but I doubt that is a main reason for most people. If you know what you are doing is harming others and you don’t care, that is on you. But if struggling with habits that you know are hurting you and others, God doesn’t have a list for you to conquer before getting to know God. Conversation can be stifled when we make assumptions about others and why they may not believe in God.

Believing what we can’t prove is normal 

Faith in God isn’t much different than faith in a lot of life. We still get on an airplane or sit in a chair, not because we know but have reason to believe it is safe. No religion can be proven beyond some doubt, but that doesn’t make faith unreasonable. Maybe we can’t reconcile why God doesn’t intervene more with evil and suffering in the world. Lack of certainty doesn’t mean there aren’t plausible reasons how a loving God can exist in such a world. If you have an inclination there is a Creator, consider initiating such conversations. Many God-folks enjoy such conversations.

Why Is It So Awkward To Talk About God With Others?

MikeEdwardsprofilepic125

Mike Edwards has been writing for Done with Religion for some time and has been a great addition to the site. Mike also has his own site where he writes that can be found at What God May Really Be Like  He can be contacted by email at: medwar2@gmail.com

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Deconstruction, Reconstruction…When Does It All End?

Posted in christian living, institutional church, Love of God, religion, The church, tagged , , , , , , , , , on June 23, 2023|

by Jim Gordon

After all the years I spent in church and being taught the various Bible stories, I always thought I had everything about God figured out. I thought I knew everything there was to know to have fellowship with God and do what was “right” for a Christian to do.

I have found this to be a common feeling among many Christian people. We think by listening to the pastor and doing some Bible reading, we have all the answers and do not need to seek out any other ways of looking at things.

Yet, as time went by, I began having some questions on things that did not make sense to me. I would notice now and then that I would even have some doubts. Of course, I did not pursue any of these questions or doubts because a ‘good’ Christian does not do that. To question or doubt was the fastest way to show you had very little faith.

As the years went by, I became a little more open to seriously wondering about some of the things I was taught in church. I started reading some books by others who felt the same way. I came to the conclusion that God was big enough to handle my questions and doubts, so I no longer felt guilty about having them. More and more people are coming to this same conclusion and are beginning to question and challenge some of the things they were taught.

I notice that some people begin to ask questions, but quickly feel guilty for doing so and go back to their old way of keeping quiet and not asking questions. Others begin to doubt and question and end up completely leaving their faith. It is sad when that happens, but everyone is certainly entitled to follow what they feel is right for them. Still others, such as me, started learning new things, found new interpretations, changed their way of thinking, changed some of their basic doctrinal beliefs and left the institutional church but did not leave their faith in God.

I soon realized I was participating in something I came to know as deconstruction. I did not know there was an actual term for what I was going through. This is common now and there is certainly nothing wrong with it. Basically, it is questioning your faith and what you were taught over the years, throwing out some things, changing your mind on some things and then starting to see some things in a new way.

The more I think about it, I think that doubts, questions, deconstruction and reconstruction will be something that never ends. I think this will be the norm for the rest of my earthly life. I personally think if we stop wondering and stop questioning, we will become stagnant in our faith. God is so much bigger than we realize, and there are so many more things to learn than what we have been taught throughout our time in church. If you are having some questions and doubts about your faith, do not feel guilty about it. Follow them and trust the Holy Spirit within you to guide you into more truth. Never stop seeking to grow in the grace and knowledge of the love of God.

Jim Gordon and his wife left the institutional church after spending over fifty years within the system. Jim wanted a way to express his thoughts and concerns about the religious system and why he and his wife decided to leave the institution but not their faith in God. Jim can be contacted by email at: jimgordon731@gmail.com

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Where Is God?

Posted in christian living, Community, Jesus follower, Love of God, religion, tagged , , , , , on June 21, 2023|

by Norman Mitchell
https://thewildfrontier.wordpress.com/

I’ve struggled a lot with the apparent withdrawal of God from the world. The old testament is full of stories about God interacting with people, having conversations with them, walking with them, befriending them. Then we get to the new testament, and God appears in the flesh. After that there are a few years where the disciples perform miracles, then… nothing.

The last two thousand years have been years of silence. At least that’s how it seems to me. To be sure, there have been followers of The Way during that time who have had some incredible insights and done some amazing things. But there is no more, “thus saith the Lord”-type of communication. Mostly what I see is people regurgitating the biblical writings and arguing about what they mean.

The easy answer is to conclude that God does not exist—that He is simply a figment of the collective human imagination. It would be easy to chalk all the old stories up to superstition and imagination. It would be easy to conclude that people who were relatively naive about the physical sciences such as molecular biology, orbital mechanics, and advanced chemistry simply attributed natural phenomenon that they didn’t understand to divine intervention. Maybe they were just telling a bunch of morality tales.

But I think there’s a better explanation. To understand, it might be helpful to first look at the politics of the Roman Empire.

As I understand it, the terms evangelist and gospel were Roman terms. Whenever a new Caesar ascended to the throne, the political overlords decided that the masses needed a unifying narrative that would promote stability and maintain everyone’s places in the established hierarchy. The old Caesar was ostensibly descended from the gods and generally had the loyalty of the populace. Because the new Caesar was not a descendent of the old one, the people might be inclined to doubt that he had a divine right to rule and question his legitimacy; and that would be disastrous. Why, the people might revolt, and where would that leave the ruling class?

So the political establishment crafted a narrative that would explain how the new Caesar had descended from the gods, why he had the right to rule, and why the people owed him their allegiance. Then the emperor would send out evangelists who would proclaim the gospel—the good news that there was a new king.

And that is precisely what the new testament writers did when they wrote the books of the new testament, only they were writing about Jesus.

Jesus did not come to start a religion. He never promoted himself as the head of a movement. He came as a servant, but he also came as a king. A humble king to be sure, but a king nonetheless. He came as a king of a completely new kingdom. A transcendent kingdom that looks nothing like the artificial kingdoms of this world. An authentic kingdom that is higher than all other kingdoms.

The gospel is not that Jesus died on the cross to appease an angry God so He would forgive us for being sinners and let us live in heaven when we die. The gospel is not that you need to admit that you are a sinner and pledge mental assent to a set of religious tenets, and then thou shalt have thy sins forgiven and live forever in heaven, the end. The gospel is that the builder from Nazareth was the son of God who arrived on earth and is now the king of the highest kingdom and is the one to whom we owe our highest allegiance.

The gospel of Christ is a call to a discipline. Following the King is a practice. It is a journey, and we face the choice every day to either continue or abandon the journey. Following the King is both an individual pursuit and a corporate expression of Divinity in the world. And that is what God intended from the beginning. His intention was for his presence to be expressed in the physical world, yet Adam failed, Noah failed, and the Israelite nation failed in this endeavor.

God now intends for his image, his presence to be expressed corporately through his followers who are joined together with Christ as the head. And I believe that the reason it seams that God has withdrawn from human society is because the Body of Christ has ensconced itself in an institution that stifles it, inhibits its growth, and creates artificial barriers between the various parts of the body. The institution has obscured the gospel message. Those who benefit from the institution, either by seeking safety within it or by attaining social status from it, have twisted the gospel and turned it into a warped counterfeit of the gospel of the Kingdom. They have used the institution to hide the good news behind a wall of religious dogma.

I believe that we do not see God in the world today because His body is fragmented, disjointed, functionally useless.

Sometimes, I look at the world around me and see things that are so horrible that they are almost unbearable, and I feel as if all I can do is raise my voice to the heavens and demand, “God, do you see?!?”

What I hear in response is Him gently returning the question to me: “do you see?”

It seems that throughout human history, God has been guiding humanity toward a point where we would be willing to allow His life to live through us. But, you might ask, what if the ekklesia fails, just like the others? One reason to hope is that we have the spirit of Christ indwelling us. When Jesus left the earth in physical form, his spirit transferred to his followers.

This is not a rehashing of the new agey teaching that “god is within all of us.” Notice that I said the spirit of Christ indwells us. That’s “us” as a unified whole, not as a loose aggregation of individuals. None of Christ’s followers possesses the full spirit of Christ, but we each have part of it. When we are joined together as a body with Christ as the head, that is when the kingdom of heaven is revealed on the earth—just as God has intended from the beginning.

Several of the new testament authors foresaw a time when God would, once again, interact directly with humanity. Until then, I think He expects us to carry out our assigned mission: to follow the true King and join together as a body under the King’s leadership to reveal his presence in the world. Perhaps if we did that, then people would be able to see God again.

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